[Battle Physics] There's some weird mass stuff going on

[Alciphron]

My friends, I must apologise as it apperas I've been spreading misinformation all along!

Here's what the values really mean

soldier donno_eporedoi_early, 20, 0, 5.36 (mass), 2 (radius), 0.25 (height)

If you want soldiers to be able to get deeper into enemy formation, you'll have to increase their mass.

If you want better cohesion, decrease their radius. If you do so, increase their height by the same amount.

Here's what it could look like:

soldier donno_eporedoi_early, 20, 0, 10, 0.5, 2

[torongill]

My friends, I must apologise as it apperas I've been spreading misinformation all along!

Here's what the values really mean

soldier donno_eporedoi_early, 20, 0, 5.36 (mass), 2 (radius), 0.25 (height)

If you want soldiers to be able to get deeper into enemy formation, you'll have to increase their mass.

If you want better cohesion, decrease their radius. If you do so, increase their height by the same amount.

Here's what it could look like:

soldier donno_eporedoi_early, 20, 0, 10, 0.5, 2

I am not sure how it changed in M2TW, but IIRC it didn't change that much. So:

Argoi_Early, 40, 0, 1.22
Soldier name, number of men, no equipment, mass

This is what it is. However, when there is no additional numbers, that means default values, which are 0.4 Radius, and 1.7 Height
In other words, it's this:

Argoi_Early, 40, 0, 1.22, 0.4, 1.7

Increasing radius makes the individual soldier wider, making him a bigger target and also making the formation less cohesive, which means decreased combat performance.
Increasing height makes the individual soldier taller, making him a bigger target, which decreases combat performance
Increasing mass makes the unit push better, but it makes maintaining formation more difficult.

stat_pri_attr           spear

increases pushing even more, and in a HUGE way.

Compare the stats of the Principes:

soldier                 Principes_Camillan, 64, 0, 1.22, 0.3
stat_sec_attr           light_spear, spear_bonus_6

And the Libyan Infantry:

soldier                 libyan_infantry_early, 80, 0, 1.13, 0.3
stat_sec_attr           spear, spear_bonus_4

Despite the mass difference, a custom battle ended with the Principes pushed and spread out like a crescent.

I have changed all spear attributes to light_spear and will report whether it has an effect.

[Wulfburk]

Well yeah we are kind agreeing with each other here heh. I mean like, the priority shoudnt be "this archer has too much attack" or "how come this hoplite is way better than the other but costs 1k less". On the battle side the priority should be not unit stats themselves but the unit cohesion, kill ratio, bugs such as the skirmisher ones, charges, etc...

Campaign side works and there are few bugs, but i guess it will take a few patches for the reforms, culture and religion mechanics to be exactly how the devs want it.

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes, but it is balancing of unit stats that is causing some strange behaviour. Not combat ratings or costs, but mass, height and radius.

[King Arthur]

I have to agree with Quintus' opening post, the combat is just plain weird and very frustrating and fighting against an army that sallies out is border line 'Not Fun' as they are almost super human with skirmisher units able to hold off charges by heavy infantry and cavalry at the same time and never break! - I am playing as Baktria and I besieged the rebel Town of Antocheia-Eschate with has 3 units of Nizagan Eranshahr (Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen) in the garrison, their primary stats are:

stat_mental 3, low, trained

Now, this 'should' mean that once engaged in combat they are pretty useless.......

I charged 2 units of Hoplitai whom have a charge bonus of 28.... in to their front, so that's 200 archers vs 322 heavy infantry, then I charged a unit of Median Cavalry whom have a charge bonus of 16 in to their rear......

They took 10 casualties but their morale went from steady to wavering..... they did not break, in fact the melee lasted for over 10 minutes at which point they finally broke and rallied in the town square.....

I have looked at other mods where the combat is smooth, enjoyable and where unarmoured archers units simply crumble against a charge by heavy infantry, such as Stainless Steel 6.4, Call of Warhammer and even a gem of a mod for BI called The Crusades.

Now in these mods, the Heavy Infantry has a mass of 1.3, so I altered all heavy infantry for a test, eg:

soldier hoplitai, 64, 0, 1.3

I have seen no positive changes, so am unsure as to where the issue lies when compared to other mods which seem to have seamless battles?

[Ferdiad]

I have to agree with Quintus' opening post, the combat is just plain weird and very frustrating and fighting against an army that sallies out is border line 'Not Fun' as they are almost super human with skirmisher units able to hold off charges by heavy infantry and cavalry at the same time and never break! - I am playing as Baktria and I besieged the rebel Town of Antocheia-Eschate with has 3 units of Nizagan Eranshahr (Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen) in the garrison, their primary stats are:

stat_mental 3, low, trained

Now, this 'should' mean that once engaged in combat they are pretty useless.......

I charged 2 units of Hoplitai whom have a charge bonus of 28.... in to their front, so that's 200 archers vs 322 heavy infantry, then I charged a unit of Median Cavalry whom have a charge bonus of 16 in to their rear......

They took 10 casualties but their morale went from steady to wavering..... they did not break, in fact the melee lasted for over 10 minutes at which point they finally broke and rallied in the town square.....

I have looked at other mods where the combat is smooth, enjoyable and where unarmoured archers units simply crumble against a charge by heavy infantry, such as Stainless Steel 6.4, Call of Warhammer and even a gem of a mod for BI called The Crusades.

Now in these mods, the Heavy Infantry has a mass of 1.3, so I altered all heavy infantry for a test, eg:

soldier hoplitai, 64, 0, 1.3

I have seen no positive changes, so am unsure as to where the issue lies when compared to other mods which seem to have seamless battles?

SS uses RC which apart from Cav being a bit too strong is the near perfect battle experience imo.

[Yayattasa]

I have to agree with Quintus' opening post, the combat is just plain weird and very frustrating and fighting against an army that sallies out is border line 'Not Fun' as they are almost super human with skirmisher units able to hold off charges by heavy infantry and cavalry at the same time and never break! - I am playing as Baktria and I besieged the rebel Town of Antocheia-Eschate with has 3 units of Nizagan Eranshahr (Western Iranian Archer-Spearmen) in the garrison, their primary stats are:

stat_mental 3, low, trained

Now, this 'should' mean that once engaged in combat they are pretty useless.......

I charged 2 units of Hoplitai whom have a charge bonus of 28.... in to their front, so that's 200 archers vs 322 heavy infantry, then I charged a unit of Median Cavalry whom have a charge bonus of 16 in to their rear......

They took 10 casualties but their morale went from steady to wavering..... they did not break, in fact the melee lasted for over 10 minutes at which point they finally broke and rallied in the town square.....

I have looked at other mods where the combat is smooth, enjoyable and where unarmoured archers units simply crumble against a charge by heavy infantry, such as Stainless Steel 6.4, Call of Warhammer and even a gem of a mod for BI called The Crusades.

Now in these mods, the Heavy Infantry has a mass of 1.3, so I altered all heavy infantry for a test, eg:

soldier hoplitai, 64, 0, 1.3

I have seen no positive changes, so am unsure as to where the issue lies when compared to other mods which seem to have seamless battles?

In War of the West the cavalry charges can rout anything. Check their masses maybe to try to find a pattern?

[Sint]

SS uses RC which apart from Cav being a bit too strong is the near perfect battle experience imo.

I find it a bit too fast and the archers are too strong against fully armored troops, but yes it is really nice.

I charged 2 units of Hoplitai whom have a charge bonus of 28.... in to their front, so that's 200 archers vs 322 heavy infantry, then I charged a unit of Median Cavalry whom have a charge bonus of 16 in to their rear......

They took 10 casualties but their morale went from steady to wavering..... they did not break, i

Then charge again ....

[Ferdiad]

Well I had forgotten that 6.4 uses the old RC, RC 2.0 is a lot more balanced IMO.

[k/t]

Here's some information about "spear" and "light_spear": http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6#post11667216

I asked about the unit stats in EB2 a few years ago, with the intention of offering my services as a unit stat creator, as I have made RR/RC submods for two other mods already and I am probably the person most familiar with RC after Point Blank. I was told that the team was using EDU-matic, which was a highly customizable something something and it was ideal for their needs. I didn't want to be a RR/RaCist the way I usually am, because the EB2 team was very dedicated to its work, and I don't like to bother people, so I decided to wait and see the result, in case this EDU-matic turned out to be really good.

I haven't gotten EB2 yet, but the stats that I've caught a glimpse of from the posts in this thread are monstrous! Charge 28??? On infantry??? Mass 5??? Even for cavalry that's huge.

"6 armour value for units with half naked guys, 8 armour for helmet, body armour and shins protection in e.g peltastai logades?"

Yeah, that's really not so great. It reminds me of Broken Crescent's unit stats...they were absolutely terrible. Guys in a t-shirt had 5 armour, cataphracts had 10.

I eventually make a RR/RC submod for every mod I play, but I am waiting for EB2 to be finished before getting it.

How did you make units have only one javelin? Everyone agreed that 2 is the minimum the engine will allow.

Wow, I remember when Ferdiad had a few posts and no rep.

[torongill]

How did you make units have only one javelin? Everyone agreed that 2 is the minimum the engine will allow.

Do you mean M2TW specific, because I had no problems giving one pilum to my legionaries back in EB 1.3

I'm not sure whether this is the right place to ask, but is it possible to shorten the javelin(normal javelineer) throwing animation? Right now the sequence is very, very long and apart from breaking immersion it is a huge handicap for the skirmisher units. Those guys should stay out of range, but the mere fact that it takes them that long to start throwing means that at best they would be able to launch one volley against incoming heavy infantry. If the animation sequence can be shortened, it would boost immensely the usability of the skirmishers, since it would allow them to run out of range and continue to sting the heavy infantry.

[k/t]

WAD81 said the animation has already been changed and it's much faster. Which one is it? Is it a new faster one, or the old, interminable Vanilla one? (Shame on you for that animation, CA.)

I've never played R1. Yes, I am referring to M2. Everyone always said 2 javelins minimum.

[Lord Derfel]

The stats here don't make any sense at all which makes the battles feel really bizarre. RR/RC would be really great for this mod. I personally can't play the mod as the battles just feel broken. Which is a real shame as the models are the best I have ever seen in any mod. I started playing SS again just to see the difference and units fighting in SS act much better.

I am big fan of EB1 and the battles in that mod were awesome along with everything else. This mod has the potential to be the best mod for total war ever and I know this is just a beta and everything else about the mod is amazing but unit stats and battle balancing need a lot of work. I am curious to know what the EB team has to say about this. Are they doing any work on adjusting unit stats? Will anything be done to improve pike infantry? Have they considered looking at RR/RC to see if it has any value to the mod?

[Kull]

I am curious to know what the EB team has to say about this. Are they doing any work on adjusting unit stats? Will anything be done to improve pike infantry? Have they considered looking at RR/RC to see if it has any value to the mod?

We are looking at everything. Worth noting that you can't just pull stats from a medieval mod and stick them into the ancient era. Anybody who thinks they can do better is encouraged to "have at it".

[k/t]

The stats are not pulled from a medieval mod. They were first used in a medieval mod, but they are based on a system which can be adapted. They were stuck into Third Age and now they're standard in MOS.

I will most definitely "have at it" when EB2 is ready. And unlike with the other two submods I've made, I think this time I will have lots of help from people on this forum, should I need it.

[athanaric]

The stats are not pulled from a medieval mod. They were first used in a medieval mod, but they are based on a system which can be adapted. They were stuck into Third Age and now they're standard in MOS.

I will most definitely "have at it" when EB2 is ready. And unlike with the other two submods I've made, I think this time I will have lots of help from people on this forum, should I need it.

EB I actually had a stat system that was kind of similar to RR/RC (as far as I understand it). Something of a basic "grid" of certain weapons having certain values. Very easy to grasp at any rate.
I'm not as familiar with M2TW based stats, as I find them somewhat confusing (though TATW with RR/RC was quite enjoyable, and the unit stats felt less random than in Vanilla). ATM, EB II combat sometimes feels right, sometimes wrong for the reasons described by the others here.

[Kull]

The stats are not pulled from a medieval mod. They were first used in a medieval mod, but they are based on a system which can be adapted. They were stuck into Third Age and now they're standard in MOS.

So in your own words, they have to be adapted from the medieval system. Thanks for confirming exactly what I stated.

[Dooz]

Real Combat philosophy would be fantastic.

[Thuycidides]

Even aside from cohesion and formation problems, there's a general issue with mass and the physics in the game at present. In EB1, everything was fairly credible; heavy infantry slammed into lighter troops and slowly pushed them aside. Heavy cavalry would almost sweep away skirmishers, and on hitting with a proper charge would penetrate deep into a unit. Skirmishers could not hold heavier infantry, and if in a loose formation would barely affect the passage of cavalry.

Higher mass does not necessarily equal more force. The cavalry charge is one thing, but why should the cavalry then push its way through a crowd of spears afterward?

What you are observing in EB2 is mostly caused by a lack of unit cohesion I think. One guy runs out in front to charge, and as soon as he impacts the rest of the men stop.

[WAD81]

^ original is 70 meters for prec_javelin, set by EB team.

If you inculde the time it takes the animation to kick in and reduce the distance by the short run-up that the units do before throwing the javelin... the real range is well below 70 meters.

I know it's inaccurate historically. But it works in terms of arcade game. FOR ME.
Also, good luck with skirmishers without modding them somehow. Let's not pretend that the current system is a fair attempt at how they really worked.