Man Vs machine!

[Amorphos]

Man Vs machine
Can we create superior intelligence to that of the human mind?

1. To simulate the neurons of a human brain would take a football field of supercomputers, yet that would not be anything like as powerful as the human brain due to the connectivity. silicon has its limits and cannot match the brain so perhaps only an organic neural network could reproduce that of the brain? It may however be possible to create an artificial brain that is superior simply because it is disembodied and does not have to use a large part of its functionality for ordinary bodily functions.

2.A computational machine can never match the human mind because it works on facts which are never absolute to begin with, whereas the human mind works on a looser level seemingly excepting this as base. The mind can also draw new notions out of the ethers – so to say, yet a mechanical mind can only draw from its array of knowledgeable factors.

3.We can perceive anything and work out any given problem anyway, given the correct info necessary, so it would not make any difference if we had a bigger brain. In fact we could say that the brain is at its maxim, even if much of it is used for controlling the body.

Q 1. is it possible to build something more advanced than the human mind [inc, brain]?

Q 2. if we 'enhanced' the brain, with organic or silicon augmentations would it be dissabilitating in some way? I am thinking along the lines of autism and the like, in many cases it appears that such people are super intelligent as they can work out complex mathematical problems etc, yet this is because they are somewhat oblivious to the world where the brain is not being used for ordinary functions and in actual fact their minds are constrained. This constraint perhaps allows the brain to center on a specific line of thought following it through to the end rather than going off on tangents all the time as one normally does.


So is it possible to create a human better than natural humans or a machine better than either or indeed both?

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[Narakir]

An natural ubber human is possible : Three ways :
- We're this after all, few millenia of evolution between us and our earliest ancestors, we've a bigger brain ect... so It can evolove without technology.
- Robotic implants such as a cyborg this can greatly enchance the human abilites to make it far superior... an "homo-roboticus" . But a Cyborg is dependant of the material he's made of.
- The other fact is the genetic selection, that will defintly create humans better than they are actually, like we force two good horses to copulate to create a better one (I don't like this... this sounds too much like eugenism).

About a machine it will be more preformant for a lot of tasks but will desperatly lacks of something : creativity and emotions that can't be simulated/programed because it is so complex and that we don't understand everything about it (hopefully) this makes the human more adaptative than any computer as his mind can do things completly illogical.

[Amorphos]

Narakir, hi

interesting. Yes we are the ubber human – but have we reached the pinnacle? I would concede that perhaps we may have a little way to go yet, however i would say that the 'final touch' cannot be achieved artificially! Imagine a time when we have reached the ultimate human state, surely that better human could create a better artificial human than we lesser humans can, thus it stands to reason that we could not create the most advanced human until we are indeed the most advanced human!

We may produce 'better' horses via breeding, but better for what? They are better for us in our uses of them such as for racehorses you want arabian breeds, for knights you want something more sturdy, yet how horses are naturally is better for them according to the now environment, whilst the horse itself has gone through many incarnations respectively to its changing environment. With humans we may envisage a time when you could look at a number of pictures on a computer screen and pick your child as yet to be born. But then we may pick only say the better looking ones or the more intelligent which would reduce the diversity needed to arrive at these types in the first place! Not just that but we would remove the skilled and manual labour amongst a whole myriad of different useful human types.

A cyber/robo human of any kind would diminish the capabilities of the ultimate human unless we can create something that is better at thinking than the brain which millions of years of evolution has not. Even then we may ask how far one needs to go before you have an entity that can understand any given thing [perhaps we are already there!].

It would be good to have say a calculator or an internet connection attached to the brain, as long as they are not infused or merged with the brain – i would like to be able to turn the goddam thing off y'know.

[Narakir]

interesting. Yes we are the ubber human – but have we reached the pinnacle? I would concede that perhaps we may have a little way to go yet, however i would say that the 'final touch' cannot be achieved artificially! Imagine a time when we have reached the ultimate human state, surely that better human could create a better artificial human than we lesser humans can, thus it stands to reason that we could not create the most advanced human until we are indeed the most advanced human!

For me the human status can always change, we're like annimals we addapt to our environements and our needs, that's why we lost a part of our pilosity due the fact we wear clothes or that people living in places like the high mountains in Bolivia have a large breast because their pumonal capacity is greater than the average human. The next step could make the human body with longer fingers to type on the computer and a bigger brain but less muscles as we'll have more comfort and less needs of physical efforts :tooth: . Or an other hypothesis could be that our world collapse and that we'll return to a more primitive state of life maybe we could return back to a less developed brain. So there'll be always changes.

But you're right, we can't create the most advanced human until we are it, I'm sure middle age people would have immagined differently the uber human as we do and that would be different in the future, it is again very related to our context and environement.

We may produce 'better' horses via breeding, but better for what? They are better for us in our uses of them such as for racehorses you want arabian breeds, for knights you want something more sturdy, yet how horses are naturally is better for them according to the now environment, whilst the horse itself has gone through many incarnations respectively to its changing environment. With humans we may envisage a time when you could look at a number of pictures on a computer screen and pick your child as yet to be born. But then we may pick only say the better looking ones or the more intelligent which would reduce the diversity needed to arrive at these types in the first place! Not just that but we would remove the skilled and manual labour amongst a whole myriad of different useful human types

I agree here too, egenism isn't the way as mankind must be diversified to evolve, that's why diversity and mixing is important to keep the genetic sane, just look at what happen through consangunity lack of new genes makes people quite dumb, for exemple in some lost valleys where people marry themselve with thier neighbours that are infact thier cousins because there's no one else. I remember a novel of HP Lovercraft "The Lurking Fear" were this fact is exagerated and people had become horrible cannibal apes. Also it is said that the Ovule always chose the spermatozöid wich is the most distinct from it's genetic patrimony.

It would be good to have say a calculator or an internet connection attached to the brain, as long as they are not infused or merged with the brain – i would like to be able to turn the goddam thing off y'know.

Aren't Ipods/portable phones a primitive aspect of this after all ? we can bring our files, our music/videos everywere, there's a calculator even an angenda and you can talk to everyone everywere. Hopefully you can cut this thing when you want and say STOP.

[Anarius]

Machines can never be smarter than the man who created them. I don't think we'll ever create a machine that can think and feel like a human being.

[Tom Paine]

Machines can never be smarter than the man who created them. I don't think we'll ever create a machine that can think and feel like a human being.

Why not?

[Holger Danske]

The creator is always superior to his creation... Therefore man will always be superior to machine.

Why not?

Because a machine does not have; creativity, willpower, and most of all passion.

[Tom Paine]

I will repeat; what makes a creator inherently superior to his creation? What prevents a creator designing or creating something superior to them?
Why can a machine not have passion? Not passion the way we do from chemical reactions, true; but why not passion? It is only a reaction, and a machine can have reactions.

[Silver Guard]

It dosn't need them, the power of logic is the most potent in the world, it gave us the nuclear bomb, the AK-47, pretty much every power in the world minus the US president. And computers are a hell of lot better then us at processing and using information, they just need to get taught how to

[Holger Danske]

It dosn't need them, the power of logic is the most potent in the world, it gave us the nuclear bomb, the AK-47, pretty much every power in the world minus the US president. And computers are a hell of lot better then us at processing and using information, they just need to get taught how to

An the fact that they rely blindly on mathematics excludes any creative thinking or real action.
It is true that machines are better at calculation and processing mathematical data. But how the hell is that going to give them willpower and cunning?... Humans would in theory be able to outsmart them because of the fact a machine cannot operate without thinking about numbers and distances. Does EMP say anything to you? water on electronic circuts, etc...

[Tom Paine]

We think in numbers, too; in the end the human brain can be pretty much reduced to on-off functions, I believe. Its the complexity of how those are used that matters, no more.

[Silver Guard]

Think of light circuits, yes thats right, circuits that have no matirial substnce but rely on light signals fired across a vacuum. Just think of how fast computer like that could operate? In a battle situation it could calculate its ememies weaponry, weaknesses, speed, size, manpower and armour, choose the perfect gun to operate against it, calculte the wind speed and aim neccissary, including possible gust that could throw its aim. Fire, and move onto calculating the next opponent quicker then it could be hit by a bullet. In that situation cunning couldn't help you, it would already have calculated your most likely action based on the situation

[The White Knight]

Can computers have feelings however? Or: how did man develop into a moral being? Do we even want computers to be moral?

I bought a small book today of a modern Dutch philosopher and I hope to get some answers.

[Silver Guard]

Morality originated from a strive to keep the race live, hense doing a wrong against another Human would trigger a feedback feeling of guilt (sadness over something you have done) usualy able to be fixed by 'righting the wrong' or helping the race.

If such a feedback was built into a machine I expect the same would occur, the machine would have a way of interpreting whether what it did was wrong, for example whould it steal something would be triggered. It would be far too complex a thing for me to explain how to do given my limited knowledge of mechanics and coding, but im sure it could be done

[The White Knight]

Morality originated from a strive to keep the race live, hense doing a wrong against another Human would trigger a feedback feeling of guilt (sadness over something you have done) usualy able to be fixed by 'righting the wrong' or helping the race.

If such a feedback was built into a machine I expect the same would occur, the machine would have a way of interpreting whether what it did was wrong, for example whould it steal something would be triggered. It would be far too complex a thing for me to explain how to do given my limited knowledge of mechanics and coding, but im sure it could be done

Possible: by what you describe as being morality. However I'm not sure if that description is enough. How would you, following the described causes of morality, explain for example the general disgust of violence, even against other species than our own. Or the disgust of gays or indifference to them, the need for religious authority or the distrust of religion. Humans have a lot of illogical, irrational thinking and sometimes downright unexplainable but perfectly acceptable theories.

I believe a human mind ís too complex to understand in the near future, too complex to ever copy or reconstruct in its entirity.

Sure: machines and artificial intelligences are immensly more efficient than human beings, hence man invented them. However I do not think giving them the "gift" of moral thinking and emotion will make them anything more effecient (it'll probably even decrease their efficiency) and will thus make them pass their very reason of existence.
Above all, they might grow to be a threat to humanity should they equal and surpass us on all aspects.

[Silver Guard]

These are either carried on mistakes, like how some computer languages don't work on other programs then their meant to
Violence: Carried on from self-preservation, when it goes too far the discust of violence continues over, that particular system not realising the difference
Gays: Potentialy a threat to surival, as they do not poduce children, in a more resticted group this is quite rational
Religion: Feeling safer from knowing the answers to things is unique to humans it seems, stemming perhaps from the need to find out what was causing harm before being able to stop it

The morality may have its uses however, as in the azimov series, where robots had to have inbuilt codes to prevent the potential conquest of man by them.