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Thread: The original thread

  1. #3101

    Default Re: The original thread

    To any developer of the mod: This is my feedback ….
    I have found the mod quite remarkable and very enjoyable, however there are a number of issues that I have encountered so I’ve decided to list here all my questions, remarks and thoughts on this mod:
    To specify I am playing the latest version of the mod, the 1.5 (+discord) version that was added on Mod DB in march 2019 :
    _ There is a recurrent bug where textures sort of mash and that makes the game crash, it seems to be a prevalent bug with large scale mods, but is there something to be done to minimise it’s affects?
    _ Another recurrent bug is that when trying to play a custom battle with 20 steam tanks, the game seems to automatically crash, so what gives?
    _ The mod comes with a number of corrupted files (saves from replays and campaigns), in a final version of the mod could these be removed?
    _ For the Vampires, the Grave guard halberdiers have swords.
    _ The unit card, and texture for “sisters of Averlorn” are missing for some human factions.
    _ Karl Franz hammer texture seems to be missing when he is on a Griffon.
    _ The Tsars guards and wagons for Kislev aren’t available in campaign.
    _ Kislev rangers are missing from campaign.
    _ Dragon Slayers, for the dwarves aren’t available in campaign.
    _ Alcatani Fellowship aren’t available in campaign.
    _ The halfling pot thrower aren’t available in campaign.
    (in fact quite a number of units aren’t available in campaign….).
    _ A number of units don’t have any pictures when right clicking on them.
    _ A number of units are lacking accurate descriptions of abilities (ex: elven arches have long range missiles, but it isn’t specified in the unit description….).
    _ In campaign, Mazdamundi isn’t in his unit, the right texture is there in the game (Slann Mage-Priest), so why not use it for him?
    _ Ogres have unit sound in campaign but not in battle
    _ War mammoths don’t have any sound (a number of units in fact are lacking sound…).
    _ Inner circle knights’ bodyguards for the dogs of war don’t have any texture (they look silver).
    _ Van Klumpf Buccaneers have no flag (playing as the dogs of war).
    _ A number of buildings have a generic pyramid picture instead of an appropriate one….
    _ When the wood elves upgrade their settlements, they look like bretonnian settlements, which looks weird in the forests of Athel Loren…
    _ Bretonnia seems to have a bit of a weird temple system, they can both build small temple to sigmar, and the lady of the lake building chain, it doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense… Furthermore, when the empire captures a bretonnian city, the lady of the lake building doesn’t automatically get destroyed and provides no bonuses, and stops the empire from constructing the churches of sigmar unless the lady of the lake building is manually destroyed….
    _ rat swarm have weird floating torches above them in night battles (perhaps this is due to engine limitations…)
    _ A number of coastal regions don’t have ports.
    _ 2 farms in Wissenburg.
    _ Woodsmen’s guild not in building browser.
    _ In a campaign with the empire, the farms didn’t seem to work, I right clicked on them and there was no “farms +1” in the description…. Is this normal, due to the farming scripts, or is this a bug?
    _ The last Alcohol production building (for the empire) has a Russian description…
    _ The artists’ studios for Kislev still has the m2tw description (in fact many buildings have very sparse descriptions….).
    _ For some reason, rebels can build the emperors palace in Middenstag…..
    Questions and propositions:
    _ Could there be more cutscenes, notably for the intros, I think the only ones to have it are the dark elves, … It would be nice to have some more of that……
    _ Could the dogs of war faction be made more playable in campaign (greater unit availability from barracks notably…)
    _ Could some sort of map feature be added on the campaign map to represent the vortex (for example a resource, that makes the vortex visible on the campaign map…).
    _ Why has the old world map been changed? Why have the navigable rivers of the old world been removed? Also, why have the lands of chaos been changed? (the tzeentch corruption was removed I think?...)
    _ Could forts be made buildable again? I found that being able to build your own fortifications is really useful in campaign….
    _ Apparently there is a way of making “named forts”, this could be useful for BOTET as a number of these forts replace settlements :
    _ Could you bring back empire free company great swords, as well as Nuln Landsknechts? Especially the landsknechts, they are so cool and the empire could really do with some pikemen for some pike and shot tactics.
    _ Talking of empire troops, could you make all empire units available to all empire factions? Maybe in an AOR fashion (ex: Nuln great canon available only in Nuln, and griffons only available in Altdorf to non Reikland empire factions). This would be quite feasible, as I’ve noticed looking in the files you have quite a lot of hidden resources slots available that could be created for this… Many of these units have their own unique flags, which is a nice touch, … It would make playing as empire factions more fun (being able to recruit all knightly orders for example…) ….. A greater use of the hidden resource feature would be nice….
    _ Also, couldn’t Bretonnia, and Kislev also have the dogs of war building chain and their AOR units (in Estalia, Tylea…) and the empire like the other human factions?
    _ Didn’t the Vampire counts used to have the screaming skull catapult in a previous version?
    _ Griffons, Hippogriffs and a number of flying units have no riders, and are fairly small. In previous version of the mod they were more numerous and had riders, the animals themselves have saddles on them…. Instead of three, I think griffons should be 4-5 or 6 when tacking in account their cost and recruitment requirements… and having riders simply makes the game look better….
    _ More tanks per unit (as they are really expensive…).
    _In fact, larger units in general would be neat….
    _ Could all units have the “free upkeep” attribute? It would simply make keeping garrisons a lot simpler, and easier to plan out, as there doesn’t seem to be great coherence in that regard, some basic units don’t have free upkeep, but some elite units do…..
    _ Could there be a greater availability of dwarves and elvish auxiliaries in more settlements for humans (ex: dwarves available in dwarven Karaks)?
    _Could steam tanks be made into an AOR unit in Miragliano for human factions?
    _ Could there be a general (Balthasar Gelt) with a gold wizard unit spawn (unique character spawn like Volkmar)?
    _ Could wizard units be made into general units, with a special wizard general officer model, and general unit card?
    _ Could there be a witch hunter agent for the empire that functions like an inquisitor in Medieval 2 TW…
    _ More mercenaries would be nice….
    _ A few more officers in units would be great….
    _ Having more units with abilities, notably spear wall for halberd units (even if they don’t start the battle with it…).
    _ More artillery engines per unit would also be great…
    _ The “chaos dwarf manufactory” could be renamed into generic “manufactory” as the skaven also use this building chain….
    _ Could the cultures be reworked in campaign, for example, some Norscan cities look like middle eastern settlements, which is kind of out of place.
    _ Could there be more unique buildings? (ex: The Oak of Ages, in Athel Loren…).
    _ More custom settlements would be great (ex: especially for the wood elves….).
    _ Could there be a “useful info’s” PDF be given with the mod, detailing recruitment possibilities, buildings, unique units and buildings, etc.….
    _ One thing that would be great would be for the mod to have its own launcher like Roma Surrectum, that would enable the mod to have more playable factions (like the beastmen, Estalia, Tylea, ….).

    That about it, for my feedback for the mod….
    To any developers out there reading this:
    Great job so far, you’ve done an excellent mod, it just needs a bit of work done, and a few things need fixing….
    I hope my comments were of some use….

  2. #3102

    Default Re: The original thread

    I was looking in the various files and I noticed that there was an Alcatani building, available to rebels, so I had a look in campaign but I was unable to find it even though it was supposedly available…
    In effect this makes the acatani unit unavailable in campaign, as the building isn’t pre-placed…
    Another building that isn’t pre-placed is Muntz Hideout, in effect making munzt outlaw infantry also unavailable in campaign…
    Also, I think it would be a good idea to have district units, available to their races, for example have elves available to the high elves from the elven district, and respectively the same for the ogres and dwarves….
    That’s all I think….

  3. #3103

    Default Re: The original thread

    First of all,thank you for your remarks.
    I am not a developer, but am "refining" the entire BOTET mod for myself and your findings and ideas are very helpful. Regarding your last post: The Alcatani building is indeed missing and I added it to one of the Border Princes' settlements. The Muntz Outlaw Infantry IS available as mercenaries in Tilea and the Border Princes' regions.
    Have a good one!

  4. #3104

    Default Re: The original thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dampfkrieger View Post
    First of all,thank you for your remarks.
    I am not a developer, but am "refining" the entire BOTET mod for myself and your findings and ideas are very helpful. Regarding your last post: The Alcatani building is indeed missing and I added it to one of the Border Princes' settlements. The Muntz Outlaw Infantry IS available as mercenaries in Tilea and the Border Princes' regions.
    Have a good one!

    Hi Dampfkrieger,

    Thank you for the compliment, I'm happy you found my comment useful.

    You are indeed correct that muntz outlaws are available as mercenaries, but they are also available from a building called "muntz hideout" available to rebels, but that isn't pre-placed, so you might want to implement it.

    Also, a fairly easy change would be to make Nordland marines and Van Klumf buccaneers available to empire factions in Marienburg (as I believe it was done for a previous version). You can also make Kislev rangers available in the Lubyanka building in Kislev, available to Kislev and the empire factions.

    Also, a change you might find good, is making district units available to their own 'race', for example that high eleven can recruit from the elvish quarters in marrienburg, or that dwarves and ogres can recruit from dwarven and ogre districts if they capture a settlement that has one...

    Regarding the missing Alcatani, this seems to be an oversight from the mod developers.

    Do you know when and if future versions of the mod will fix this, and when will the next version of the mod be available? As there seems to be quite a few aspects that need refining as you say.


  5. #3105

    Default Re: The original thread

    Nice remarks
    Last edited by Garnash; May 16, 2019 at 03:03 AM.

  6. #3106

    Default Re: The original thread

    I am trying this mod again, after some time.

    Ver 1.5 + discord.

    I heard rumours of version 2.0 existence... Can't find it.

    Vampire counts related questions.
    1 - Does raise of dead mechanic takes in account the amount of casualities? If so, does it takes in account casualities taken and given? as in TW:WH, or is it only given?1.2 - After battle, chosing ransom or free, would decrease my dead pool for raise of dead?
    1.3 - Does religion necromancy has any effect on the dead pool strength?
    2 - I just got Vlad, was it random pure luck or there was a hidden trigger?
    3 - How do I know when the armor building upgrades will increase the armor of any unit? By how much it would be?
    4 - What does the spells does exactly? Vanhel's Danse macabre seems to temporarily decrease fatigue, but also seems to increase the unit's speed.
    Does it also enhance melee stats? Does it scale/empower with necromancy level? What about the other spells? There was one that description was "steal power from enemy" how does it works?
    Is there a list of how it works?

  7. #3107

    Default Re: The original thread

    The last Discord version is from 06/12/2019, 2.0 beta from what I understood.
    The big changes are that Nordland and Stirland where replaced by Vampire Coast and Clan Pestilens.
    Benfiquista Budista Comunista

  8. #3108

    Default Re: The original thread

    How does the scripted army spam works? I though it was only in defense of capitals?

    Playing VC on VH/VH. I am struggling for money, had razed every spearman/archer/cavalry/temple of sigmar buildings that I have found.
    Have bought a level 1 market in every city and I am sending all my merchants to the bone dragon sites. They are about reaching now.

    All my money is spend recruiting new units , my expansion had been dreadfully slow, because I have no income, I ran out of skeletons to recruit, buildings were too expensive. (and I am artificially blocked due army spams)
    I am trying to upgrade graveyards for the extra corruption (thus I can increase taxes, due better public order) and more troops to recruit, but thus far I have managed to only build the level 1 cemiteries due no money.
    I couldn't even max out the farms from the cities were I can tax on very high, due how poor I am.

    I have absolutely no control on raise of dead , don't know how it happens or where it does...
    Then I just took the rebel city near Averland, they immediately declared war on me. I killed his army, scouted all his regions, he was completely defenseless without any meaningful stack nearby. It was a minor city, with 2 - 3 units garrisoning...
    I decide to quickly grab it, then boom. The AI spam a 'doom' stack of elites and vets...

    I mean, COME ON!

    It's turn 9 and I've been expanding as a slug. I have no special units, I have no tactical thinking except spamming skeletons and sending them forward (trying to avoid blobs and chase missiles), but the path finding from med2 is awful.
    Then when I have a chance for expansion I get blocked like that? Just to mention the army that he spammed from a MINOR CITY, will eat my army alive, then I'll have to wait an eternity until I can raise a new army.
    Better of all, Vlad will die.

    It's just awful.
    You know what is even more awful? It supposed to trigger only in capitals, I had another stack and half, if they're combined (which they were on the way), they would win and kill Averland, but instead I saw a undefended minor city and saw an opportunity to make money income and reach closer to their capital, but then, that's what happens.
    Just trying to understand why...

    Stirland is still alive. Know why? Because of this BS scrippted army spam.
    Last edited by DecayWolf; January 09, 2020 at 01:14 AM.

  9. #3109

    Default Re: The original thread

    Nvm dropped the mod, for good this time. I know how broken high attack/melee and hit points can be, so I was really interested to build an elite army to fight against other elite hard to kill armies, like Nurgle's for example.

    I have no clue how to make money as VC. Was making about 25k or so by turn 30, with farms and market places upgrades, had like 22 or so settlements. Buildings cost way too much.
    And I can't even program myself and calculate the most efficient and profitable building route, because of the vague description. eg: "+100 income and extra tradable good income"
    How much is the second? How many turns it will take to break even? Same goes to anything else. For example mining seems to be a complete garbage +80 income for 4k is just awful, however it seems to also add some extra hidden income.

    Cost of recruiting is simply too high, raise of dead doesn't seems to work with any other game mechanics (doesn't bother with local necromancy religion nor how many necromancers I have in same region), after battle dead count does not contribute to for it's dead pool.
    Still on necromancy religion note. A priest would cost 100 upkeep per turn while giving an absolutely garbage religion conversion. At first I was thinking about using them to convert places so I could raise taxes, but it's just not an option, they'll make me lose money instead.
    There's only one building which will increase corruption/necromancy, it cost a dreadful lot and it was actually being cleaned over time on my starting cities. (started with 80%, became 50%, even though all adjacent cities were mine with necromancy going on) Unless I am planning to play 10.000 turns, those buildings will never break even (raise necromancy = hapiness -> higher taxes)

    Back to raise dead. After the intiial raise of dead, it will either take forever to refil or won't at all. For example, I had one region with 9 zombies, 3 skeleton warriors, 3 skeleton spearman. After recruiting those, it didn't spam a single unit ever
    Most regions doesn't give anything.

    Just for a comparison. Recruiting an skeleton in town cost between 450 (expert necromancy) to 600 (default). A raise dead same skeleton would cost 50 - 80. I mean it's just a fraction of the cost. Zombies cost 0 - 50.
    Yes, I can get zombies for free, they also only have 5 upkeep, while in town they cost 400... I mean... How can someone say a zombie worth 0 or 400 as anything remotely close to a consistent reasoning?
    Upkeep makes absolutely no sense. Why does skeletons only cost 15 upkeep, ghouls 10 and zombies 5, then the next cheapest upkeep will be at 100 from fell bats which has 4 attack, 0 defense 75 model and doesn't really fly.
    1 skeleton has 150 models, IIRC 7 attack and 9 IIRC defense... Why are you asking me to pay about 670% extra upkeep for a worse unit? Grave guards cost 260 and they aren't that much better.
    I am the only one whom can see the differecen between 15 and 260 here?

    VC unit roster consist mostly of melee units, but their core infantry lack speed. Med 2 also has a completely awful camera. Units often forget their initial orders and doesn't pursue units whom did disengage. (guard mode offline) i
    That means VC needs FAST units to deal against missiles, just like in TW:WH.
    Early game there are only just 2 options. Black Knights cost 460 upkeep and has 1 unit limit capacity for a very expensive building.
    Dire wolfs may be some sort of joke, because they cost 400 upkeep... I don't even gonna comment on that. Oh they also have 1 unit limit and their building cost 2.5k. Clearly not a joke.

    Theres not even an attempt to have diversity amoung the infantry. Crypt ghouls are basically stronger zombies. They have same speed than skeletons. Upkeep wise reflects that they're in between zombies and skeletons statwise, but more vulnerable to missiles. I mean, why aren't they faster and more glass cannon instead?

    Beyond that, every battle is the exactly same thing, over and over again. Send cannon fodders foward, get infantry to flank or Black Knights if you have it and win the match, then repeat it by a billion of times. To make things better combat is also dreadful slow.

    I am trying to understand what makes this mod great and why would someone want to play this. Let's ignore the fact that you can have trade and alliances with everyone, ignore the funny world map, ignore that beastmans/orcs/skaven,etc. lives in human towns. Playing this game a lot of time is spent on units logistics, cities administration, agent movement (which requires 2 clicks then scrolling, due terrible UI) (and which they can get path blocked easily and waste their turn), then battles just take forever.
    The AI is pretty incompetent and dumb on the battlefield.

    The AI is even worse on the campaign map. I think what makes TW:WH an easy game on legendary, part is how stupid the AI is on the world map. But in comparison the AI from WH is a genius to whatever it is in med2.
    It doesn't reinforce himself correctly nor attempt to flee from certain death, in fact it does the opposite. they put their armies in very dangerous positions (suicide them really, like moving 4 units inside my territory when we're at war), and when they attack they don't take in consideration my own reinforcements from armies close by, nor the garrisoned troops nearby which will reinforce the sieged city, thus leading the AI to lose all of his units.
    If it wasn't for script army spam I would be steam rolling so freaking hard, because the AI is a moron beyond comprehesion.

    The AI main factor when they'll declare war, seems to be how much they like my faction and my reputation. They are completely ignorant about my army power.
    In TW:WH I had the Dawi strength 3 in the world, sitting at -1800 relations with me, constantly doing multiple agent action ever turn, and they don't declare war on me. Part because they need me to kill Chaos, and part because they are scared of millitary power.
    It doesn't happen on this mod.

    Wisseland declared war on me, 2 turns later it's dead.

    Units weren't well balanced, but that's actually why I downloaded the mod and honestly the only positive for me.

    I am glad to one thing though. Back when TW:WH1 was released, I actually though this mod was as good as the initial game, currently there's no contest. CA did an amazing job, really glad.
    Lore wise we could choose say Steel of Faith Grimmhammer overhaul, which leads to honest inquiry of why would someone play this instead.

  10. #3110

    Default Re: The original thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DecayWolf View Post
    I am glad to one thing though. Back when TW:WH1 was released, I actually though this mod was as good as the initial game, currently there's no contest. CA did an amazing job, really glad.
    Lore wise we could choose say Steel of Faith Grimmhammer overhaul, which leads to honest inquiry of why would someone play this instead.
    Because the gameplay in RTW and MTW2 and their accompanying mods are actually more fun than modern TW games.

  11. #3111

    Default Re: The original thread

    Decaywolf, I'd like to say that your attitude is unacceptably toxic. All you did was voice complaints based on your pet peeves instead of providing constructive criticism. If you want to know what constructive criticism looks like, refer to post #3101 above, where user Titus66 provided a helpful list of issues with the game. Glancing through that wall of text that you've posted, your problems with this mod can be broken down into three things:

    -Lacking thorough knowledge of game mechanics. You attempted to play VC's, which are one of the tougher factions to play. If you don't know how to play the game, don't complain about it being too difficult for you. The VC's are meant precisely for those players who find the base campaign challenge provided by the likes of Empire or Chaos to be too easy. That's why they have a poor economy, a low recruitment system that depends on minimizing casualties and high upkeep units. BOTET is based on the earlier Call of Warhammer, which was a horrendously unbalanced mod intended for people who wanted to extract the most punishing challenge out of the game engine. In fact this mod greatly toned down, as best as it could, the worst of these features. If you find the VC campaign too hard, pick a different faction. In any case, many of your complaints can be managed simply by knowing the game mechanics better, getting rid of useless units/characters, minimizing casualties and making better use of free upkeep buildings.

    -Attributing problems inherent to the Med 2 engine to this mod. Again any experienced Med 2 player should be aware of what these are. The modders aren't miracle workers. They can't re-code the game from the ground up. AFAIK it is impossible to alter the AI of this game in a significant way or fix some of the engine's core limitations that you've blamed on the mod's design team.

    -Disparaging this mod on the grounds of it not measuring up to an AAA title which has hundreds of staff and tens of millions of dollars budget sunk into it. By comparison, this mod was developed by a handful of dedicated coders and artists working on their free time, for free. The results of what they managed to accomplish are astounding and puts even big design studios to shame. But comparing the end result is like comparing a lovingly restored WW2 era B-17 with a modern deployed B-2 Spirit. Besides, many people find the rule set and the game system of Medieval 2 superior to CA's later titles.

    As to the question of who would want to play this instead of TWW? Well for one, people with refined taste. Personally I enjoy both this mod and CA's Warhammer games.
    Last edited by Carl Jung was right; January 24, 2020 at 08:37 PM.

  12. #3112

    Default Re: The original thread

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and perception are always subjective. But I must say if someone plays on very hard difficulty cannot complain being beaten by the AI, simply cannot. Not on this mod at least.
    For example, I started a Vampire Coast campaign on H/H difficulty, on turn 12 my capital is besieged by a Lizardmen army composed by 1 Carnosaur, 1 Stegadon, 2 Kroxigors, 2 Temple Guards, 6 Saurus and Skinks.
    I had only zombie pirates to defend, off course it was the end of that campaign. Now I'm starting a new one, with different strategies... loving it and always praying to my favourite Dark God.
    Benfiquista Budista Comunista

  13. #3113
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: The original thread

    Total War Warhammer 2 is too hard to master. And i really dislike how units are recruited from the commanders, just like in Total War: Rome 2 and Attilla btw- much better to recruit from the cities like in RTW and M2TW:K.

    This mod is amazing, but i do agree with the criticism of "human cities" as in "vanilla cities"- it is in need of custom settlements everywhere and this is where the creators should focus their energy and passion. Because TWW2 is better in one regard- it's animations and graphics including custom cities.

    BotET is in need of custom cities at least. Gameplay wise i enjoy it more because it has better recruitment, easier gameplay and especially the models do not disappear into thin air when moving the camera close to them.
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; January 28, 2020 at 09:11 AM.
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    but betrayal with treachery.

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