how often do catholic factions war?

[awisler]

ive never played mtw, so i was wondering, how often did catholic factions war with each other? my understanding is that it doesnt happen until late game, after most of the muslim lands have been crusaded? or is there a lot of fighting amongst the catholic factions? ive just always thought you would be safe for a while at first, is that right or? :hmmm:

[Lusted]

Dont count on it. In MTW wars were common between catholic nations, though the Pope would ask you to stop.

[Inhuman One]

I am sure that england wont like france and scotland much. The english and french have been at war for a long time, I am sure that the english wouldnt stop when the pope would ask it.

[Cha0sMarin3]

I am sure that england wont like france and scotland much. The english and french have been at war for a long time, I am sure that the english wouldnt stop when the pope would ask it.

In vanilla MTW, there where no scots, only a rebel faction that likes to riot alot.

[The Mongol]

In vanilla MTW, there where no scots, only a rebel faction that likes to riot alot.

...uhhh ok?

I wouldn't count on being safe and having a happy old time with all the catholic factions. Like it was mentioned the English and French will probably hold a grudge.

[Cha0sMarin3]

But, its your decision if you want to stay out of the wars or not. I've played a whole game as the Silicians without making war on any faction except muslim ones. But, their are always some catholic factions at war, most of the time there is a big war going on between france, england and germany.

[awisler]

so im geussing factions are frequently excommunicated? now that makes me question, how easy is it to get back into relations with the pope? say im venice and i take over milans only 2 territories, can i become unexcommunicated pretty quickly without having to give up the regions because milan would be destroyed?

[Phaedo]

so im geussing factions are frequently excommunicated? now that makes me question, how easy is it to get back into relations with the pope? say im venice and i take over milans only 2 territories, can i become unexcommunicated pretty quickly without having to give up the regions because milan would be destroyed?

If excommunication is anything like the original MTW, then you are given a time limit to withdraw your troops. If you can attack Genoa and Milan in the same turn, and sack both of them in the next, I'd say you're in the clear. However, I wouldn't advise chancing it until you're sufficiently powerful to beat off any Crusading army - grab Corsica and Sardinia for staging points, and maybe slap the Byzantines around a bit. I don't particularly want to recreate the League of Cambrai, personally.

[Charok]

grab Corsica and Sardinia for staging points, and maybe slap the Byzantines around a bit.

Um, why wouldn't every faction near Italy head straight for rebel Florence. It is one of the best looking rebel cities at the start of the game, and it shouldn't matter that the people in Florence are catholic, right? The rebel faction surely isn't catholic and that's what matters, I guess.

[Phaedo]

I wouldn't go for Florence right off the bat because Venice doesn't have a castle on the Italian mainland. Milan could raise a feudal army in a couple turns, Venice would require at least one or two more turns to ship cavalry and specialized infantry from Zara (or is it Ragusa in-game?). Basically, I feel that the less mainland possessions Venice has to defend, the better.

[Lusted]

You only get un-excommunicated when the Pope dies.

[Salil]

You only get un-excommunicated when the Pope dies.

so as long as you've got plenty of assassins around the vatican, you can do whatever you want to other catholic factions

[LoZz]

catholic factions, or just europe in general where always at war, at any point during the medieval period their would be atlest two countries at war,


you had the 100 years war and then the 30 years war, theirs 130 years of about 500 in war allready!

[big_feef]

catholic factions, or just europe in general where always at war, at any point during the medieval period their would be atlest two countries at war,


you had the 100 years war and then the 30 years war, theirs 130 years of about 500 in war allready!

Not to mention the 80 years war (Spain and Holland), the Italian War, etc... And what was worse was that the Popes in that era were heavily involved in politics. If they thought your faction was too powerful or that your faction defied Papal authority too much they'd form an alliance against you without officially excommunicating you. Historically, excommunicating an entire kingdom (by excommunicating the leader of course) only happened when said leader did something to directly threaten Catholicism or Papal authority.

Here's a list of kings that have been excommunicated and why (from wikipedia):

Henry IV, HRE, 1076: Excommunicated for insisting on the right to invest (choose) bishops. Later rescinded in 1077.

Philip I, France, 1094: Excommunicated for refusing to uphold his marriage; and marrying someone else. Rescinded many times and reinstated as he would always go back to his other 'wife'.

Sverre Sigurdsson, Norway, 1194: It is claimed that he murdered the legitimate king and usurped his throne. He was excommunicated because he tried to control the bishops in Norway and tried and failed to get the archbishop to officially crown him king. He died without having his excommunication removed, but advised his son and heir to make reparations with the Church before his death.

John I, England, 1209: Excommunicated for stripping the Church of its privileges and confiscating its property. Rescinded in 1213 after John submitted to the Church.

Alfonso II, Portugal, 1212: Excommunicated for trying to weaken the power of the Church in Portugal. He took away the privileges his grandfather, Alfonso I, granted the Church in exchange for recognizing Portugal's independence. He died without having his excommunication rescinded; which basically means he didn't give in to the Church's demands.

Frederick II, HRE, 1227: One of the most famous monarchs to be excommunicated. He was excommunicated twice, mostly for his desire to directly control the Papacy and the Italian peninsula; which lead to various wars with the Papal States and the Italian City States. He had his first excommunication rescinded when he went on a crusade.

Henry VII, England, 1533: The most famous of the excommunicated monarchs. His excommunication came mostly because the wife he wanted to divorce, Catherine of Aragon, was the aunt of the powerful Spanish King and Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V. His reason for divorcing her was that she was unable to give him a male heir, as all their children but one died in childhood. After the Pope's refusal to grant his divorce, Henry created his own Church, the Church of England, that would be able grant his divorces... I'm not going to go into his other famous acts; just those responsible for his excommunication. :tooth:

Elizabeth I, England, 1570: Daughter of Henry VIII, she finished what her father started and successfully created the Church of England after her half-sister restored Catholicism in England. But, she wasn't directly excommunicated for that act... she was instead instead excommunicated to aid Catholic rebels in England, which was caused, of course, by her actions to create a protestant church in England with herself as it's head. She is the last monarch to have been excommunicated.

From this, we can see that monarchs aren't really excommunicated for warring against other Catholics... unless it's the Pope directly. While I love MTW and really looking forward to MTW2, I think the excommunication system needs to be reworked. You shouldn't get excommunicated for slaughtering other Catholics, that didn't really happen historically; and if it did, all Catholic kingdoms of the Medieval era would have been excommunicated all the time. Instead, you should only get excommunicated, and I'm glad this is implemented, for flaunting the Pope's authority (not going on crusades when requested, refusing to do Papal missions, etc) and directly attacking the Papal States.

[Markas]

ive never played mtw, so i was wondering, how often did catholic factions war with each other? my understanding is that it doesnt happen until late game, after most of the muslim lands have been crusaded? or is there a lot of fighting amongst the catholic factions? ive just always thought you would be safe for a while at first, is that right or? :hmmm:

CA where rather clever with the excommunication threat. Most of the European powers were clumped together and so rapid expansion seemed to be possible, nay attractive. However, you attack a European faction and the pope will threaten to excommunicate you if you misbehave. This has the following drawbacks:

1) The Pope will stop giving you occasional 1000 Florin gifts for being a good Catholic.
2) Any player can crusade against you with the popes blessing (provided they have a chapter house), meaning a huge army early on you would be unlikely to defend yourself against.

This was clever because:

1) It stopped early rapid expansion, meaning few factions were wiped out quickly and no faction became omnipotent.
2) Factions planned their attacks simultaneously against their enemies.
3) It gave you an excuse to assassinate the Pope.

[awisler]

CA where rather clever with the excommunication threat. Most of the European powers were clumped together and so rapid expansion seemed to be possible, nay attractive. However, you attack a European faction and the pope will threaten to excommunicate you if you misbehave. This has the following drawbacks:

1) The Pope will stop giving you occasional 1000 Florin gifts for being a good Catholic.
2) Any player can crusade against you with the popes blessing (provided they have a chapter house), meaning a huge army early on you would be unlikely to defend yourself against.

This was clever because:

1) It stopped early rapid expansion, meaning few factions were wiped out quickly and no faction became omnipotent.
2) Factions planned their attacks simultaneously against their enemies.
3) It gave you an excuse to assassinate the Pope.

ahh yes, does a new pope mean all the factions are unexcommunicated instantly or just his choice and hopefully you had better onees voted? also, how easy/hard do you guys think itd be to assassinate the pope? like % wise.

[Markas]

ahh yes, does a new pope mean all the factions are unexcommunicated instantly or just his choice and hopefully you had better onees voted? also, how easy/hard do you guys think itd be to assassinate the pope? like % wise.

You were given a clean slate along with everybody else. Also, I don't know if you knew this but there were no papal elections in MTW a new one just 'appeared' out of pope school or wherever, usually with a large army if the papal states/Rome was occupied. As for killing the pope I can't remember really as I tended to fight him on the battlefield. Prob 10-20% if you had a good assassin. this may help- http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/dosw...r_religion.txt

[Salil]

ahh yes, does a new pope mean all the factions are unexcommunicated instantly or just his choice and hopefully you had better onees voted? also, how easy/hard do you guys think itd be to assassinate the pope? like % wise.

if it's like MTW, all factions are unexcommunicated at once when the pope dies.
and I'm sure it'll be pretty damn hard to assassinate the pope, him being the head of the most powerful organisation at the time and all. and of course making it too easy to assassinate him would make excommunication a laugh.

[big_feef]

if it's like MTW, all factions are unexcommunicated at once when the pope dies.
and I'm sure it'll be pretty damn hard to assassinate the pope, him being the head of the most powerful organisation at the time and all. and of course making it too easy to assassinate him would make excommunication a laugh.

In unmodded MTW I had an 70%+ chance on average of assassinating a Pope with a 5 star assassin. Sometimes, it would be as high as 90%+... but that was only if the Pope had a very low influence and only a couple of stars. The most annoying thing about the Papal States in MTW was their uncanny ability to churn out inquisitors with several stars that seem to always succeed in burning a high level general at the stake. They even get my princes some of the times... nuts!

I'm really looking forward to dealing with the Pope after I finish a Muslim campaign. Seems like it will be a lot of fnu with the way CA is configuring stuff.

[Black Francis]

I always found MTW to be the most fun when I was being the Popes lapdog and thus staying on the side of the "faithful" European nations by maintaining the status-quo and concentrating on waging war against the Islamic threat in the East. I plan to continue the same policy in M2TW but this will be more interesting with papal opinion etc in game.
One thing I did not like was that when the Pope died everybody was welcomed back into the Church. I would rather that this was a less simplistic process and I hope there are greater penalties for incurring the Popes displeasure and wrath.