End of the bedroom tax?

[mongrel]

Liberal Democrat-sponsored bill aimed at modifying the bedroom tax was voted through to the next stage in parliament today, after a shedload of Tory MPs ignored whips' demands to vote with the government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-9715640.html

The issue has split the coalition, with one Tory MP, Philip Davies, claiming the Liberal-Tory pact has ended. If passed, the bill would mean people who cannot be found a smaller home would be exempt from the cut in housing benefit. Disabled people who need a spare bedroom or who have had their homes adapted would be exempt.

This is good news for common sense, less so for the Conservative movement.

I never understood how the Government failed to note that is entirely unreasonable to tell tenants that they must move when there is nowhere for them to move, or when they have spent a sizeable amount of money adapting their home for their disability. And as cost-saving measure it was useless, it costs too much to implement.



Is this the end of punitive measures against the poor? Is it the beginning of the end for Cameron? Why wasn't Iain Duncan Smith sacked in the earlier reshuffle? Let's discuss.

[caratacus]

This is probably the only good thing the Lib-Dems have achieved, in scraping this incredibly stupid and unfair tax. I had a conversation with a senior Affordable Housing Officer of a local authority some months ago, and asked them why there were so few single person or double bedroom units amongst the new social housing units they were helping to implement. "We aren't required to provide a particular ratio of such units" came the reply. Which of course leaves a significant shortfall of those needing such units because of this tax.

[mongrel]

Agreed. It was one of those totally ideologically-driven proposals with little thought given as to whether it was actually feasible to implement. We now have a similar issue with the rather savage Armed Forces cuts. Just as the demands on our Armed forces has increased, HMG are now realising that it is nigh on impossible to recruit the 30,000 reservists who were supposed to replace the regulars they have made redundant.

[mongrel]

Damn, the LibDems have a nerve

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Breaking news: Lib Dems win crucial vote to reform the bedroom tax http://www.libdems.org.uk/lib_dems_w...he_bedroom_tax …

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Some liberal

These proposed changes to the policy have been supported by a number of organisations including Shelter, The Joseph Rowntree Foundation, Crisis, Oxfam and the Disability Benefits Consortium

This pernicious imposition on the poor and disabled would not have existed in the first place without Libdem support. And it was opposed bitterly by disability and housing charities when introduced.

[Denny Crane!]

Talking to one housing officer she claimed one bedroom homes have always been incredibly unpopular to build and to get rented so there are virtually none in many areas and few and far between where they do exist.

What really got me about this measure was that it didn't even save much money. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was a crucial part of a plan to save the UK from debt but it wasn't, it was a paltry sum that it ended up saving which made it worthless. Making people downsize from 3-4 bedrrom places to 2 bedroom places makes a lot of sense to me, as there is no shortage of 2 bedroom accommodation.

[justicar5]

Talking to one housing officer she claimed one bedroom homes have always been incredibly unpopular to build and to get rented so there are virtually none in many areas and few and far between where they do exist.

What really got me about this measure was that it didn't even save much money. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was a crucial part of a plan to save the UK from debt but it wasn't, it was a paltry sum that it ended up saving which made it worthless. Making people downsize from 3-4 bedrrom places to 2 bedroom places makes a lot of sense to me, as there is no shortage of 2 bedroom accommodation.

1 bedroom house/flats have pretty much the same footprint as 2 beds, and cost almost the same to build but are worth far less, hence less get built. The second part of your point, about down sizing from a 3-4bed to a 2 makes perfect sense.

[Denny Crane!]

1 bedroom house/flats have pretty much the same footprint as 2 beds, and cost almost the same to build but are worth far less, hence less get built. The second part of your point, about down sizing from a 3-4bed to a 2 makes perfect sense.

Always amazed when we get an agreement but always happy for it. The irony is that it was just bad politics as well because they could have implemented it this way and rode down all objections as it is a good common sense policy.

In terms of one bedrooms they don't have to take up the same footprint. Studio apartments can be small and efficient particularly but they have to be purpose built and there is no demand for them.

[justicar5]

Always amazed when we get an agreement but always happy for it. The irony is that it was just bad politics as well because they could have implemented it this way and rode down all objections as it is a good common sense policy.

In terms of one bedrooms they don't have to take up the same footprint. Studio apartments can be small and efficient particularly but they have to be purpose built and there is no demand for them.

it is difficult to get planning permission for blocks of flats in some areas, at least compared to a row of houses, which doesn't help. One solution to the shortage of social housing maybe the lifting of restrictions on the 'right to buy' cash, and it's expansion, with, say a 10 year period before resale, to prevent people buying discounted council houses and heading straight to the estate agents, say you can sell in that time but if you do you hae to make up the full market price as assessed at time of sale to you, use the money thus generated to renovate existing properties and build more, preferably in mixed estates.

[mongrel]

I agree with you. The benign neglect of Britan's housing needs in the hope that the market would sort things out simply doesn't work. The rent is too damned high, and that bleeds our Housing Benefit budgets as wages have not kept up with rent inflation. A "property owning democracy" is driving many ordinary people into unaffordable debt, as house prices are now beyond ridiculous.

[Poach]

This is how the Bedroom Tax should've been implemented in the first place: put penalties on people with legitimately no reason to have larger houses than they need. Penalising people with medical needs for another room or people who have no smaller house to move to has never made sense to me.

Interestingly, or perhaps damningly, the SNP have been campaigning on the Bedroom Tax heavily for the Referendum, yet only 2 of their 6 Westminster MPs bothered to appear to vote on this issue. You'd have thought they'd prioritise it considering how much they're relying on it politically...

[Bobz]

This is how the Bedroom Tax should've been implemented in the first place: put penalties on people with legitimately no reason to have larger houses than they need. Penalising people with medical needs for another room or people who have no smaller house to move to has never made sense to me.

Agreed. This was the position I had when we last discussed this, and after seeing the Tax implemented it's only made my opposition stronger.


On a secondary note, it's interesting to note that in Gove's first weeks as Chief Whip, there has been a high-profile defection and a major defeat for the government. Of course I'm above feeling any schadenfreude...

[Denny Crane!]

Right to buy is an absolute joke. Why on earth should someone get a council house for less than half their private neighbour, it is terribly unfair.

The easiest way to solve right to buy is to allow it but only at full market value.

[mongrel]

Right to buy is an absolute joke. Why on earth should someone get a council house for less than half their private neighbour, it is terribly unfair.

The easiest way to solve right to buy is to allow it but only at full market value.

I am in utter agreement here.

[Denny Crane!]

I am in utter agreement here.

And does all of this stem from Thatcher? Was this how it was then?

[Bobz]

Right to buy is an absolute joke. Why on earth should someone get a council house for less than half their private neighbour, it is terribly unfair.

The easiest way to solve right to buy is to allow it but only at full market value.

Given the current crisis with the shortage of social housing, I'll go even further and suspend right to buy altogether. I'll still allow local councils to sell off surplus housing at market values, if there are any areas with a surplus, or to sell houses to fund new developments. However the current nationwide right to buy is completely counter-productive when the waiting lists are now measured in years.

To be honest, there is a whole other discussion to be had on general housing issues. Ballooning rents, yet another housing price bubble, insufficient new builds, the entire planning process, etc.

[justicar5]

Right to buy is an absolute joke. Why on earth should someone get a council house for less than half their private neighbour, it is terribly unfair.

The easiest way to solve right to buy is to allow it but only at full market value.

The idea to me is to make previous rental payments worth something (and if you are ina position to buy, you where not getting housing benefit). My main problem was always the not building more houses with the proceeds aspect. In fact if you made using the funds for more houses mandatory, you may be on to something

[Denny Crane!]

Given the current crisis with the shortage of social housing, I'll go even further and suspend right to buy altogether. I'll still allow local councils to sell off surplus housing at market values, if there are any areas with a surplus, or to sell houses to fund new developments. However the current nationwide right to buy is completely counter-productive when the waiting lists are now measured in years.

To be honest, there is a whole other discussion to be had on general housing issues. Ballooning rents, yet another housing price bubble, insufficient new builds, the entire planning process, etc.

I'd agree though in terms of a whole new discussion I'm only some way into being knowledgable enough to be able to discuss it.

The idea to me is to make previous rental payments worth something (and if you are ina position to buy, you where not getting housing benefit). My main problem was always the not building more houses with the proceeds aspect. In fact if you made using the funds for more houses mandatory, you may be on to something

Why should they be worth something? A council tenant already pays less than a private tenant for a bigger house, they might pay for a 3 bed semi less than someone pays for a 3 bed flat, why oh why is a council tenant somehow a privileged member of society over someone who isn't but still as poor but couldn't get a council house...randomly often!

Let me tell you my own personal experience, bought a house for 100k and 5 years later the person 2 doors up bought the same house for 48k under the right to buy. Now the proceeeds used to build the new housing stock? I know from my profession the timber frame for a house that size will cost you about 44k. That doesn't include the cost of all the maintenance and subsidised rent nor does it include the cost on top of the previous timber frame. About all that would be reasonable is market rate, and barely then.

Previous rent counting for something...honestly.

[Farnan]

Dumb Yank here, can you explain this bedroom tax?

[justicar5]

Dumb Yank here, can you explain this bedroom tax?

IF you are in receipt of housing benefit (a low pay benefit that helps with rent) and have a spare bedroom (so a single person renting a two bed flat) you have the benefit cut by a percentage. Became instantly known as the bedroom tax. It also gets cut for disabled people with live in carers, people whose children are not in permanent residence (so students who only come back over the holidays for instance) and originally people whose children are serving military, so not in permanent residence, but I believe that got dropped like a hot rock fairly early.

[Farnan]

IF you are in receipt of housing benefit (a low pay benefit that helps with rent) and have a spare bedroom (so a single person renting a two bed flat) you have the benefit cut by a percentage. Became instantly known as the bedroom tax. It also gets cut for disabled people with live in carers, people whose children are not in permanent residence (so students who only come back over the holidays for instance) and originally people whose children are serving military, so not in permanent residence, but I believe that got dropped like a hot rock fairly early.

That's stupid. Just provide a fixed rate based on location, disability, and family size. If they can find a bigger place they can afford based on that rate good for them.