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Thread: [Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

  1. #101

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    The script is weird for sweboz. In the the reform section, it actually says that it's scripted in another file entirely (descr_events). And in that file, it pretty much gives those years as the reform years. That being said, it is only scripted to increase a counter, so yes, it would be silent. I also don't know if the counter increasing has any effect yet.

    It's also quite weird because at the same place where the sweboz reforms are scripted (descr_events), there's script for the lugian reforms. However, there's also some scripting done in the reform section of campaign_script for the lugian reforms... and it's not even the same script! Maybe the scripting in descr_events just isn't applied? I dunno.
    Oh my...

    It seems to be a big mess in there. It's normal when scripting to leave things unfinished for later use, of course. But it would be really, really great if a member of the team could simply state what are the reforms, if they are finished or not and how to obtain them. Like in the FAQ of EB1.


  2. #102

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by malibu.stacey View Post
    Or have a low level settler barrack from the start, that should help with the conversion.

    But it is possible to get a metropolis in Baktra in the game (at least it was in 2.00), because this happened in my game without any cheats, it just took a while, turn 250, if I remember correctly.
    You can't do that with Bactria. At least not in 2.0. You can build only native baracks - which increases the conversion rate of eastern imperial only. Which means, you can't really do anything but conquering a metropolis, and those are far away This is why I abandoned my test campaign with Bactria (with .0)

    Colos

  3. #103

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Colos1987 View Post
    You can't do that with Bactria. At least not in 2.0. You can build only native baracks - which increases the conversion rate of eastern imperial only. Which means, you can't really do anything but conquering a metropolis, and those are far away This is why I abandoned my test campaign with Bactria (with .0)

    Colos
    He tells you that he did it and you answer it's impossible to do it?
    lmao

    EDIT
    Updated the OP with results of the sweboz test.
    Last edited by Simpelicity; September 19, 2014 at 03:44 PM.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by malibu.stacey View Post
    Or have a low level settler barrack from the start, that should help with the conversion.

    But it is possible to get a metropolis in Baktra in the game (at least it was in 2.00), because this happened in my game without any cheats, it just took a while, turn 250, if I remember correctly.
    I've played the 2.01 version. Now I'm playing with the extended offices submod, where Baktra is a metropolis from the beginning on and it works fine.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballpoint202 View Post
    Once the right colony is in place it takes about 19 years to increase the culture 19%, so not really very long in a nearly 300-year long campaign.

    Conquering a metropolis in the first place is the problem, as there are only five at start: Corinth, Athens, Alexandria, Pergamon, and Syracuse. The Seluecids don't even have a city on that list; why would there be one in Baktria?

    Rather than there not being enough cities with metropolises, I'd almost be willing to argue against Alexandria being a colonist-producing city -- it wasn't yet 60 years old when the game starts.

    You can conquer other cities with a polis -- you don't have to build your own.
    Again, the problem is that you can establish a colony only if you have a metropolis, having a polis is not enough (Baktra for example a polis from the beginning on). So you never get a colonist, not a single one, throughout the whole Baktria campaign. But you despirately need them to increase the culture level->became metropolis->complete the reform. As written before it's a typical vicious cycle.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Colos1987 View Post
    You can't do that with Bactria. At least not in 2.0. You can build only native baracks - which increases the conversion rate of eastern imperial only. Which means, you can't really do anything but conquering a metropolis, and those are far away This is why I abandoned my test campaign with Bactria (with .0)

    Colos
    Exactly the same happened with my 2.01 campaign.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    He tells you that he did it and you answer it's impossible to do it?
    lmao

    EDIT
    Updated the OP with results of the sweboz test.
    Like I said, it was 2.0, I haven't had the opportunity to try out 2.1. And yes, in that game I could not build settler baracks for some reason, just the indigenius one. I guess it was a problem with that game only? Maybe a bug of some sort?

    Also, governors didn't have any effect on conversion whatsoever. Thinking of it, is it possible that only a governor of Hellenistic origin can increase conversion rate (for Hellenistic factions, I mean)?

    Not trying to contradict anyone, just sharing my experiences

    Colos

  8. #108

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Colos1987 View Post
    Like I said, it was 2.0, I haven't had the opportunity to try out 2.1. And yes, in that game I could not build settler baracks for some reason, just the indigenius one. I guess it was a problem with that game only? Maybe a bug of some sort?

    Also, governors didn't have any effect on conversion whatsoever. Thinking of it, is it possible that only a governor of Hellenistic origin can increase conversion rate (for Hellenistic factions, I mean)?

    Not trying to contradict anyone, just sharing my experiences

    Colos
    You could build settler baracks only if new colonists arrive and this is only available if you have a metropolis. Governeuers have an impact on the conversion rate, but the problem is that there are fixed levels of your culture which could only be increased by building the colonist barrack. So no matter what you do if you didn't build a barrack the relevant culture will not increase at all.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    edited to remove. I believe I got it wrong (I was cooking chili while reading the edb, so I plead distraction). sorry
    Last edited by Ballpoint202; September 20, 2014 at 05:43 PM.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Those hidden ressources sound a lot like governement types.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    Those hidden ressources sound a lot like governement types.
    Yes. Perhaps because they have no metropolises at start, the Seleucids and Baktrians get to use the "native" political structures and subdivisions to install factional governments. The only Baktrian govt type that needs a metropolis (baktria7) has no hidden resource requirements at all (except that it does, because its antecedent baktria6 does).

  12. #112

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    It completely makes sense that neither Seleukids nor Baktrians have metroloplises, or can colonise. They are both a minuscule hellenistic ruling class, ruling over a population largely non hellenistic. It's especially bad for Baktria, being so far away from Greece.

    How do hidden ressources work though? Is it possible that building something adds hidden ressources? Because if those ressources are gov buildings (or come from them) it makes perfect sense. You can only build the hyparchia if there's no hyparchia already, and you can only build hyparchia's upgrade if hyparchia is already there. Similar thing with the rest of what you were saying, although your descriptiong of it is a little more imprecise, so I'm not entirely certain.

  13. #113

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    @ Simpelicity And what for Carthaginians reforms??



  14. #114

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Okay, here is the actual error in the EDB:

    ;Basilike Arche (Royal Administration)
    baktria2 city requires factions { f_baktria, } and not building_present govallied and not hidden_resource satrapy and not hidden_resource hyparchia and event_counter ecBaktriaKingdom 1
    {
    capability ;;; enables Hellenistic or Native colonization, recruitment 8 * 0.04 comes from the first two levels of colony
    {
    happiness_bonus bonus -2 requires factions { f_baktria, }
    recruitment_slots 1 requires factions { f_baktria, } and not event_counter ecWinter 1
    recruitment_slots 2 requires factions { f_baktria, } and event_counter ecWinter 1
    }
    material stone
    construction 2
    cost 1200
    settlement_min town
    upgrades
    {
    baktria4
    }
    As you can see, baktria2 requires "not hidden_resource hyparchia" and upgrades to baktria4.

    ;Satrapal District (Hyparchia)
    baktria4 city requires factions { f_baktria, } and not building_present govallied and hidden_resource hyparchia and building_present colony_hellenistic or building_present colony_eastern and event_counter ecBaktriaKingdom 1 or hidden_resource baktria
    {
    capability ;;; enables native colonization, recruitment: up to 12 * 0.04 comes from Eastern colony building plus up to 12 * 0.04 may come from Hellenistic polis
    {
    trade_level_bonus bonus -1 requires factions { f_baktria, }
    recruitment_slots 1 requires factions { f_baktria, } and not event_counter ecWinter 1
    recruitment_slots 4 requires factions { f_baktria, } and event_counter ecWinter 1
    }
    material stone
    construction 6
    cost 4800
    settlement_min town
    upgrades
    {
    }
    And here we see that baktria4 requires the hidden resource hyparchia.

    So it is impossible to upgrade the government baktria2 Basilike Arche (Royal Administration).

    Am I seeing this correctly? I believe so.

    Anyway, that aside, here is the Baktrian govt scheme in a nutshell. I'm spelling it out like this because some government buildings don't show up on the building browser, eg, Roman Free Cities.

    There are three paths: Hyparchia, Satrapy and other. Only one path is available to each region, depending on the presence of the hidden resources satrapy and hyparchia. The final govts are, respectively: Satrapal District (Hyparchia), Basilike Patris (Royal Homeland), and Epistateia epi Hellenas (Supervised Hellenic Administration).

    Where there is Hyparchia, the path is this:

    Military Occupation upgrades to baktria1 Laarchia if there are no native colonies or hellenistic colonies or polis present, or to baktria2 Basilike Arche (Royal Administration) after the reforms regardless of the presence or absence of colonies or polis, or to baktria4 Satrapal District (Hyparchia) if there is a native or hellenistic colony, and either the reforms have taken place or the region has the hidden resource "Baktria".

    baktria1 Laarchia and baktria2 Basilike Arche (Royal Administration) can each upgrade to baktria4 Satrapal District (Hyparchia) if there is a native or hellenistic colony, and either the reforms have taken place or the region has the hidden resource "Baktria". However, note the bug I pointed out at the beginning of this post.

    Where there is Satrapy, the path is this:

    Military Occupation upgrades to baktria1 Laarchia if there are no native colonies or hellenistic colonies or polis present, or to baktria6 Satrapeia if there is either a native or hellenistic colony present, and if either the reforms have taken place or the hidden resource Baktria is present.

    baktria1 Laarchia can upgrade to baktria6 Satrapeia if there is either a native or hellenistic colony present, and if either the reforms have taken place or the hidden resource Baktria is present.

    baktria6 Satrapeia can upgrade to baktria7 Basilike Patris (Royal Homeland) if there is a metropolis and a level 3 hellenistic colony present, and the reforms have taken place.

    Where there is neither Hyparchia or Satrapy, the path is this:

    Military occupation upgrades to baktria3 Eleutheria kai Autonomia (Hellenic Administration) if there is a polis present but no colonies, and if the reforms have taken place.

    baktria3 Eleutheria kai Autonomia (Hellenic Administration) upgrades to baktria5 Epistateia epi Hellenas (Supervised Hellenic Administration) if there is a polis and a hellenistic colony and the reforms have taken place.

    So, three paths, only one of which is truly bugged, but the others require conquoring cities with existing polis or even a metropolis.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    An interesting explanation but you ignored my question, ie : is it possible for a province to gain ressources and how? Because the upgrade is only impossible if the province cannot gain the ressource after baktria2 has been built. That being said, the error most likely isn't the ressource requirements, it's more likely to be the calling baktria4 an upgrade to baktria 2, at least feels that way to me.

    Meanwhile, your breakdown doesn't make sense to me. From what you quote, baktria2 falls in the "neither Hyparchia nor satrapy" category, yet you place it with hyparchia. Why is that?

  16. #116

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I believe that a hidden resource can't be gained or lost. It is permanent.

    I place baktria2 with hyparchia because it upgrades to baktria4 which requires hyparchia and doesn't upgrade further. There is definitely a typo in the file, given the contradiction I mentioned above -- either baktria2 doesn't really upgrade to baktria4 (but then what does it upgrade to?), or baktria4 doesn't really require hyparchia (but then what happens to regions that have neither the hyparchia or satrapy hidden resources?), or baktria2 actually requires hyparchia rather than not.

    So I'm assuming that the error is that it should actually require hyparchia like baktria4 to which it upgrades. Only the mod team knows for sure.

    eta: the system is actually more complex than I made it. I organized it by the three ultimate govt types (baktria4, baktria5 and baktria7), but for example, while baktria5 requires the absence of both satrapy and hyparchia, baktria3 which leads to it, doesn't.

    It's very convoluted, but I suppose that Baktria's situation was pretty convoluted when you get right down to it.
    Last edited by Ballpoint202; September 20, 2014 at 07:59 PM.

  17. #117

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post

    Sauromatae

    The sauromatae will settle if they have at least 5 settlements with both walls above the "wooden palissade" rank and what looks like a particular government type - presumably the most central one, but I don't know how to check. It is designated as "sauro_prec".
    I made a quick search about "sauro_prec" in the eb directory, with the parameter "file content".

    In the file "export.buildings.txt" in \data\text there is this :

    Code:
    {sauro_prec}	Afsadta Aegdautae (Occupation and Tribute Extortion)
    {sauro_prec_desc}	The Sauromatai, like the Skythians before them occasionally allow defeated enemies to remain essentially autonomous as tribute paying vassals. This is far from the normal occurrence, as defeated nomads usually are absorbed into the stronger tribe or move on (usually west), and settled enemies are usually relocated, killed or enslaved. As long as the locals pay their tribute on time, they are allowed to live as they traditionally have. The Sauromatai tributaries were often settled peoples, despite the often hostile relationship they had with nomads, while lesser nomadic tribes were usually used as allies, but more often than not, they were absorbed into the larger tribal confederation. \n\nStrategy\n\nThis initial level of Sarmatian administration represents simple imposition of tribute upon vanquished enemy, who is otherwise left alone to his devices. Thus no recruitment is possible in the region, which however provides handy income in cash for a moderate happiness penalty. \n\nIn nomadic regions further options become available after the initial conquest, representing absorption of the indigenous tribes into Sarmatian tribal confederacy while at the same time Sarmatian tribesmen are migrating to these newly acquired lands in search of pasture and wealth. 
    {sauro_prec_desc_short}	Oh Mighty! Our armies were once again victorious and the humbled natives will from now on have to pay a hefty sum to our treasury to keep our arrows from raining down upon them.
    I conclude that "sauro_prec" is "Afsadta Aegdautae (Occupation and Tribute Extortion)".


  18. #118

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Hm yes, it's basically their military occupation. Strange how the reform script requires that specifically, you'd think it would require the upgraded versions, not the basic one. Perhaps a typo where "=" was used instead of ">"?

    Updated the sauromatae in the OP.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    Hm yes, it's basically their military occupation. Strange how the reform script requires that specifically, you'd think it would require the upgraded versions, not the basic one. Perhaps a typo where "=" was used instead of ">"?

    Updated the sauromatae in the OP.
    Wait, it is that building and that building alone ? Not the upgrade ? I will try it's functionality when I'll achieve to have the required walls. If it doesn't do anything, I'll destroy my gov buildings and re-build the occupation to check it out. (can't say I'll do that today though)


  20. #120

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Floren d'Asteneuz View Post
    Wait, it is that building and that building alone ? Not the upgrade ? I will try it's functionality when I'll achieve to have the required walls. If it doesn't do anything, I'll destroy my gov buildings and re-build the occupation to check it out. (can't say I'll do that today though)
    Yes. Here's the script :

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType f_sauromatae
    and I_EventCounter ecSauro_Settled = 0
    and SettlementBuildingExists > wooden_pallisade
    and SettlementBuildingExists = sauro_prec
    inc_counter sauro_settled_tributaries 1
    end_monitor


    When the tributaries counter reaches 5, the reform happens. As far as I can tell, when it uses ">" that means higher ranks of that building, or upgrades of it, while when it uses "=" it means that exact building. So, walls of higher rank than "wooden palissade", but exactly "sauro_prec".

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