[Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

[myarta]

You have to view an FM in the right place for it to appear.



You have to destroy the herd buildings and build farms instead.

That works for Petra. Tadmur is a permanent camp, so don't destroy the herd building unless you feel like rebuilding it.

Some settlements are considered too remote or uninhabitable to every become proper cities. You can tell this based on whether you can even begin to build farmland. Regardless of how many herd buildings are developed, you can still build a "Dispersed Farming" in any camp that is flagged to convert into a city. If you can't build that, then it will never convert, so don't smash herd buildings, just to see if you can.

The farm buildings and the herd buildings are mutually exclusive. Higher levels of each chain block off higher levels of the other chain. Additionally, within the 'herd' chain there are two branches, the Livestock branch that offers no recruitment but more food growth, and the Warlord branch, which offers cavalry recruitment but less population growth and farm income. The descriptions of the farms and herd buildings should state their requirements. I know that the Mid-scale Farming building, for example, says that if you build it, you will block off access to the highest herd buildings. It also says you have to get nomadism down below 50% before you can build its successor, Large-scale farming.

Basically to convert you need:
1. Ability to build Dispersed Farming, which is always always available once government is established. If not available, region is not allowed to convert
2. No herd building besides the first level "Elite Herds" (which I always build first after I smash the herd buildings, since it's only 800 and 2 turns, and I can benefit from the pop growth until it disappears during the completed camp->city translation)
3. Large-scale farming, which is the third level. If you have Dispersed or Mid-scale but can't see the option for Large-scale, then either you have a herd building above Elite herds you need to smash, OR you're lacking #4:
4. Universal Pastoralism upgrade (2k population wall building). If you killed population with sacking or exterminating, or some died in a plague etc, you may have less than 2k, but as long as the UP building is built, you're fine. Otherwise, if you have to raise your population up to 2k for the first time, I recommend building the Livestock herds building even though you have to smash it to complete conversion. This will let you grow up to 2k faster than farming buildings. Then you smash, re-build the level 1 herd, then build your level 3 farm, then convert. During the 6 turns of building level 3 farm and 12 turns of converting, you benefit from the higher pop growth of the Elite Herds. Then it disappears as it has no equivalent when the conversion is complete. 18 turns of growth boosts is a good return on investment for only 800mnai and 2 turns.


Sorry to clutter that up with my protips as an unrepentant settler.

[Zeion]

We need to find eager members of our little EB community who have the time and who are willing to invest this time into making a concise overview of all these things. There are lots, looooots, of somewhat hidden features of EB2 where it would be really nice to have an overview. But we need to do it.

That being said, part of the fun of playing EB is, of course, also discovering things you didn't know about. So thats a positive thing about it.

[2Saz]

I don't know if it has already been pointed out, but it seems that regarding the KH reform, you can build the Congress even after losing one of the 3 metropolises required. In my current campaign, I had Athens, Korinth and Syracuse but I lost Korinth to Makedonia before I could build the Congress and the building option was still present after this. I know it's a detail, but it can still be useful.

[2Saz]

@gosam

I could find these ones in y game :

Epohoros tes Spartes --> Sparte
Nauarkhos tou Rhodou --> Rhodos
Nesiarchos ton Nesioton --> it said that it's for the Kyklades Islands but it's my Spartan Family Leader who got it while he was stationed in Krete.
For Athens, I don't remember because my Athenian Family Heir died in battle before I could write it down.

[2Saz]

I can't edit my post yet so...

@gosam

I could find these ones in y game :

Epohoros tes Spartes --> Sparte
Nauarkhos tou Rhodou --> Rhodos
Archon tou Demou --> Athens
Nesiarchos ton Nesioton --> it said that it's for the Kyklades Islands but it's my Spartan Family Leader who got it while he was stationed in Krete.

[gosam]

I can't edit my post yet so...

@gosam

I could find these ones in y game :

Epohoros tes Spartes --> Sparte
Nauarkhos tou Rhodou --> Rhodos
Archon tou Demou --> Athens
Nesiarchos ton Nesioton --> it said that it's for the Kyklades Islands but it's my Spartan Family Leader who got it while he was stationed in Krete.

The first three are starting traits for the relevant FMs, the last one is acquired so it seems to me that it's working well.
All the Archon traits are tied to an ethnicity (with the exception of the nesioton one), so you'll need the right FM to gain the new archonships.

[2Saz]

The first three are starting traits for the relevant FMs, the last one is acquired so it seems to me that it's working well.
All the Archon traits are tied to an ethnicity (with the exception of the nesioton one), so you'll need the right FM to gain the new archonships.

I understand that but with the death of the starting FMs, I'm curious to know how I got the traits for the next ones. Do we need to perform specific actions or is it something like hereditary (i.e. it goes directly to the next FM with the appropriate ethnicity and the most influence for example) ? Besides, in the OP, it says that there are other titles for "typically greek" ethnicities and I'm wondering which are they and how you get them. Currently I have FMs form Krete and the region of Korinth for example but no title yet for them.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't know if it has already been pointed out, but it seems that regarding the KH reform, you can build the Congress even after losing one of the 3 metropolises required. In my current campaign, I had Athens, Korinth and Syracuse but I lost Korinth to Makedonia before I could build the Congress and the building option was still present after this. I know it's a detail, but it can still be useful.

After the pain and suffering involved in getting the convoluted KH reform to work as it was supposed to at all, trust me when I say I'm not going to touch it ever again.

What's missing is a monitor that would switch the Congress trigger off again if the check found you didn't have three Metropolii. But for the complications it might cause, it's just not worth it. I do appreciate you pointing it out, though.

[2Saz]

After the pain and suffering involved in getting the convoluted KH reform to work as it was supposed to at all, trust me when I say I'm not going to touch it ever again.

Haha ! Fair enough. As far as I'm concerned, I like it, even with this little bug. It gives more personality to the campaign. However, I don't really know which are the implications in game, except new buildings with different stats. Is there a link with incoming new units ?

[2Saz]

Otherwise, it says in the OP that the Congress should be build in Korinth but the building option is actually present in every settlements (I own). Is there a reason to build it in Korinth, except maybe historical reasons?

[QuintusSertorius]

Haha ! Fair enough. As far as I'm concerned, I like it, even with this little bug. It gives more personality to the campaign. However, I don't really know which are the implications in game, except new buildings with different stats. Is there a link with incoming new units ?

The KH reforms have no impact whatsoever on units; they come through the Hellenistic Military Reforms which are the same for all nine Hellenistic factions. What they do change are your government buildings and thus infrastructure options.

Otherwise, it says in the OP that the Congress should be build in Korinth but the building option is actually present in every settlements (I own). Is there a reason to build it in Korinth, except maybe historical reasons?

You can build the Congress wherever you like. But the next stage, with the Archons, requires Korinthos (because that's where they have to go).

[madmatg]

Taksashila

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Taksashila starts out being part of the Mauryan empire. Starting from turn 15, you will randomly be asked to recognize mauryan rule (70% chance of it happening past turn 14). If you accept, you will be paying a 3000 tribute in winter, and will receive mauryan military help against invasions. There is a 40% chance per turn that help will arrive while you are at war. Looks like help will only come once per war, but I might be wrong on that.

If you refused to recognize Mauryan rule, you enter rebellion. Each turn you have 60% chance of a moderate mauryan army invading, and a 40% chance of a big mauryan army invading. Both armies are calculated seperately, so they could in theory both happen together, or neither could come. Only 1 moderate and 1 large army can be spawned at one time. The mauryans will stop sending armies past turn 170.

If the rebelling Taksashila controls at least 7 settlements and has defeated at least 4 mauryan armies, they will have earned their independance, and will be considered an empire.

EDIT tried and true. Thanks Mantaprey!

Tips
Something I realized from Mantaprey's experience : the script is heavily tied to the family members that spawn with the mauryan armies. Killing them counts as defeating their army, even if you used an assassin instead of an army. Also, assassinating the FM basically turns the mauryan army into a normal eleutheroi army, as opposed to one that will aggressively siege certain settlements of yours.

I am on turn 80, and stopped paying tribute around turn 40. The Mauryans sent about 4 armies total to attack me but have stopped after the 4th army. So when it says it will stop by turn 150 do you mean they will only send 4 armies or you must defeat at least 4 during all the ones they send from 140 on?

[myarta]

They actually only send three. The correct reform requirements for the latest version are having 7 or more settlements and defeating the THREE armies. Once you've decided to rebel, the first army has a 50% chance of showing up each turn starting at turn 21. So it's very likely to be around turn 21-23. The second army is also a 50% shot starting turn 36, so very likely to show up 36-38. The third and final army shows up at 50% chance starting turn 51, so likely to show up 51-53. However, just to make the time more variable, there are low probability rolls involved besides just beating the armies. You can expect it to take about 10 to 20 turns after you defeated the third and final army before the reform is complete. Also note that actually the armies just have to be defeated. Theoretically someone could beat them for you, but that's unlikely since Baktria is far enough away that they won't be coming up to fight rebels right by your capital.

[madmatg]

Ok I got it, thanks! I have defeated them and so now I'll start expanding more, I was leaving my armies back in case they came with more (which I guess I'll continue to do for story sake)

[myarta]

Ok I got it, thanks! I have defeated them and so now I'll start expanding more, I was leaving my armies back in case they came with more (which I guess I'll continue to do for story sake)

Sounds good. You'll get the event soon enough which says something like the Mauryan king acknowledges your independence, and then you can start building better governments. I probably wouldn't waste time building allied govt buildings if you've expanded somewhere you can't build a native, since your native government range increases a lot after independence, and it should come within 10-20 turns of beating army #3.

[lopovjack]

Hi all,

first post on the forums - I've played EB II years ago, and just remembered how many hours I sunk into it back then, so decided to try it out. I started with Baktria - out of some reason my favorite faction since forever. Anyways, I scoured the forums a bit about their reform requirements, but I still don't get it (bear with me, I know it was explained a couple of times). I took my time with rebelling, and by the time the war with AS started, Pahlava was already huffing down their neck. All in all, fast forward a couple turns forward, I manage to defeat countless AS armies, but only conquer one city (Pahlava always beat me to it, and one rebelled just as I was to attack it). AS got annihilated in the meantime and I can't find any more of their cities anywhere (they're still not a destroyed faction). My question is: What to do know? Do the reforms trigger on their own? If AS is destroyed by somebody else, will they trigger? If not, how do I find their remaining cities/armies?

Oh, also, I'm playing 2.07a!

[myarta]

Hi all,

first post on the forums - I've played EB II years ago, and just remembered how many hours I sunk into it back then, so decided to try it out. I started with Baktria - out of some reason my favorite faction since forever. Anyways, I scoured the forums a bit about their reform requirements, but I still don't get it (bear with me, I know it was explained a couple of times). I took my time with rebelling, and by the time the war with AS started, Pahlava was already huffing down their neck. All in all, fast forward a couple turns forward, I manage to defeat countless AS armies, but only conquer one city (Pahlava always beat me to it, and one rebelled just as I was to attack it). AS got annihilated in the meantime and I can't find any more of their cities anywhere (they're still not a destroyed faction). My question is: What to do know? Do the reforms trigger on their own? If AS is destroyed by somebody else, will they trigger? If not, how do I find their remaining cities/armies?

Oh, also, I'm playing 2.07a!

You have to take cities from them, so if you waited too long and their cities rebelled or became Pahlavan, you do have a bit of a problem. I suppose the team could see about writing a fallback condition where AS being eliminated automatically completes the independence script.

What you can do at this point is use the Force Diplomacy feature to salvage your save game and still get your independence. Turn off the fog of war and look for the AS cities/units. Then send your diplomat there immediately with 'move_character' or using 'character_reset' a bunch. Then...give them that city you took from the rebels via diplomacy (you may have to force peace first) and activate force diplomacy using the Advisor (?) button while in the negotiation. Then siege that city back from them. Repeat if you have to to get your count up to 3.

That's pretty cheesy, but it's not your fault that you can't find AS cities to fight, and if they're basically broken as a power, just by someone else, it should be true that you are independent of them and thus eligible for your independence event.

I noticed that the more passive AI in, what was it 2.05?, made it easier to achieve your AS independence events. In the more aggressive AI from 2.03+ that we brought back in 2.06 (or 2.07, I'm forgetting which sub version was the calmer AI test), the AS tends to crumble (as they did historically) and you have to make prepping for your independence war your first goal, otherwise you'll just be at war with Parthia for the same territory, but it won't count towards unlocking your factional government buildings like a completed independence event will.

[Draewn]

In that case, maybe the scripts need an 'alternate route' for becoming independent simply through the decline of your overlord in the region? You may not have demonstrably done the self-strengthening implied in taking the battle to them, but if they aren't in a position to be exercising power in the region the net effect is probably the same, no?

[lopovjack]

Thanks for the explanation and the cheese-route. I think I'm just going to restart with the new patch and see how it goes.

Yeah, I did a hundred turns twice with Baktria and this was the end-result both times. I wasn't too aggressive and paid the tribute until I conquered Saka to the north and the rebel provinces to the east - by the time I declared independence, Parthia was already decimating the Seleucids. It makes for an interesting mission, sending your faction leader with a pumped up Baktrian army across the newly conquered Parthia to try and attack the remaining AS provinces, but the notion of independence (and AS's threats) become somewhat moot. On the other hand, if there was an added reform condition based on the state of AS, it means you can just wait it out and reform after AS gets chased out of the region.

[QuintusSertorius]

At the very least, a fallback "AS is dead, everyone is independent" trigger is in order. Thanks for raising this.

EDIT: This is in 2.1b by the way, Hayastan, Baktria and Pergamon have a fallback whereby if the Seleukids fall below 5 provinces, their independence/kingship is automatically triggered.