[Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

[Jervaj]

I thought euzonoi better quality was mostly due to better equipment. And maybe a bit more training. Been represented as quite cheap seems strange not to use several units of them.

Actually I barelly use Akontistai but at the very start of a campaign. Not that much impact and so easy to rout.
Actually I think is part of my nature. I ussually have problems to keep realistic due to my somewhat aversion to leves. They just dont seem that cost-effective to me.
Its strange because in the east Im fine with locals, they seem effective and I enjoy using them. But in the west I use my initial armies but I hardly ever recruit akonkistai, toxotai, or hippakonkistai. Until the thureos reform the cheaper units I ussually use are hoplitai and toxotai kretikoi filling the rest with logades/peltastai and epikiletoi/phalangitai depending on faction. And for cavalry hippeis or xistophoroi.

Maybe the refresh rates are too high xD

[delra]

The best skirmishers are slingers. Check the numbers of kills after each battle and you'll see your Kretans aren't inflicting even half of the casualties that your slingers are... Slingers have good range, they have AP, they are cheap as hell, and when you route enemy army, you want that sort of quick unit to chase them down.

I generally avoid using javelin-throwing units as their animation pisses me off (they run forward to throw, then don't come back to formation, so I have to keep reforming and repositioning them so they don't mess my line). You can have a couple of Logades/Peltasts on each flank with the idea of using them as if they were Hastati with an extra throw... but for the bulk of ranged kills you should look towards slingers. You can use the mass of Akontistai to confuse and tie down battle AI, but that's cheap and lame exploit.

Try the following test in Custom battle (don't move units, one line, no skirmish, autofire):
1. 5x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
2. 5x kretans vs 1x Carth Dorks.
3. 5x standard archers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
4. 3x standard archers + 3x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
5. 5x logades vs 1x Carth Dorks.
6. 5x akontistai vs 1x Carth Dorks.
7. 5x Euzonoi vs 1x Carth Dorks.
8. 5x Equites Sabelli (jav cav) vs 1x Carth Dorks.

You will notice the following:
- Standard archers and Kretans = no difference at all in performance here. Both kill at the same rate. Accuracy, morale, defence are all lol stats that don't matter provided you don't allow your archers into melee.
- Slingers kill faster than archers. Side by side (3+3vs1) comparison shows 2-3x more kills from slingers than from archers.
- Logades are able to kill a couple dozen enemies with their javelins before the lines meet, then they are forced into melee. Even 5 to 1 they fail to obliterate the charging enemy.
- Akontistai are actually better than Logades (2x more javelins thrown) but still waaaay worse than slingers or archers.
- Not much difference between Euzonoi and Akontistai, at least none that I can see.
- Javelin cavalry sucketh.
- Dorks are way softer than you think. :-D

In summary:
- Don't get crazy over javelins, treat Logades and similar units as if they were Hastati.
- Don't overpay for Kretans, buy regular slingers and archers instead.
- The best ranged units for Pergamon aren't fancy Kretans or fancy Logades but Sphendonetai, their upkeep = 41. :-D

[Jervaj]

Slinger are not AP anymore but they do have good atack.

The good thing about Kretans is not that they kill a lot more than the others (thought better than toxotai) but that they have better shield and armour what means they ussually win in ranged exchanges. Together with nice atack and morale once out of arrows they can support the front line effectivelly where you most need it. The psiloi are basically useless once out of ammo. You can just entertain enemy units for some time.
I dont know why you assume that you wont allow kretes into mellee when thats what they are made for.

I dont use Logades or peltastai as an skirmisher. I dont even know if theres even possible to use them like that. They have low ammon and charge after launching their javelins. They are my versatile infatry. They cover holes in the line, cover the flanks of hoplites, phalanxes, emergency block for enemy cavalry that was able to pass my line, etc

Slingers have higher atack than archers so theres no need to test to know they will inflict more casualities. Though direct fire is sometimes problematic and can cause notably more casualities to your own troops than the others.
Javelinners are the most damaging ones due to numbers and projectile type. Speccially against big targets like cavalry they seem the best. Their problem is their short range but my experience has shown that a well placed volley can be devastating.
Euzonoi can even go to melee and do something too. And they are still rather cheap.

Dont misunderstand me I do use sphendotai, is just pergamon has quite easy acces to kretans opposed to others and I just prefer those.
I dont udnerstand why sphendotai are so absurdly cheap. They should be more equal o the other psiloi.

[QuintusSertorius]

A lot of misconceptions about skirmishers here. The primary purpose of skirmishers is to tie up the enemy's skirmishers, not to take down line infantry. If your skirmishers are targeting armoured and/or shielded units, you're wasting their ammunition. That none of them are terribly effective against such targets (especially from the front) is by design.

Psiloi aren't supposed to be effective melee combatants - they're barely-trained levies with no armour and often no better weapon than a knife. That's the reason they're so cheap. Slingers are even cheaper because their units are smaller than other levies.

Kretan archers have a pretty significant advantage over regular Toxotai: their range is quite a bit longer. They're also much more useful when out of ammo, since they're effective in melee.

The most effective place for a javelin volley is from behind a unit. They're not supposed to be able to stop a charge of line infantry, and certainly aren't intended to wipe them out either. If you're throwing them at a unit coming towards you, that's the very worst place to be doing it from, so it's hardly surprising that it's ineffective. The animation is realistic, you need the momentum of a run-up to impart a poweful throw.

Javelin cavalry was broken in 2.03k because of the adjustment to the skirmishing distance to accomodate horse archers. Unfortunately, CA only provided one value for all skirmish cavalry, what's a nice distance to ensure horse archers can stay beyond the range of a charge is too far for javelineers to be able to throw. In 2.04 that's been reduced; but it will mean horse archers are more likely to get caught off-guard.

There's an intentional balance between javelins and arrows/slingshot. You have to get closer, but they're more damaging. Again you have to be in the right place, and preferably not against line infantry.

[Simpelicity]

There also seem to be misconceptions about the purpose of this thread...

Confirmation that the early-mid-late eras of Pergamon have been scrapped, before I scrap it off the OP?

[Jervaj]

There also seem to be misconceptions about the purpose of this thread...

Confirmation that the early-mid-late eras of Pergamon have been scrapped, before I scrap it off the OP?

Agreed. I was going to same similar but felt like I had to answer him xD

[delra]

Well, QS confirmed it just above. So you can scrap the thing.

Pergamon gets two reforms: 1. Fighting AS/Galatia. 2. Thureos reform like all other Greeks.

Middle/high kingdom should be removed and replaced with a mention of the generic Greek/Thureos reforms.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, QS confirmed it just above. So you can scrap the thing.

Pergamon gets two reforms: 1. Fighting AS/Galatia. 2. Thureos reform like all other Greeks.

Middle/high kingdom should be removed and replaced with a mention of the generic Greek/Thureos reforms.

Correct. If we come up with something new to do with Pergamon's Era-reforms, then I'll let you all know. But for the time being, remove reference to it.

[delra]

God forbid we went off-topic on a forum where a total of like 5 people are active. We'd never recover from the confusion. :-D

[Simpelicity]

Change made.

Well if you bury the changes I'm supposed to make with stuff I barely pay attention to, you're making it unlikely the changes are gonna happen. That is all.

[delra]

Glad we cleared up Pergamon once and for all. So it actually works, and while at that in a way that's clear to everyone. Any other reforms that need clearing up ATM?

For example, for Aedui & Aruernoi you have this:

There's some script here, but I have no clue what purpose it serves.

[Simpelicity]

The text I put there doesn't convey that it needs clearing up enough?

Most factions would need to be reviewed, there've been a few too many patches and I haven't been keeping up with the changes.

[delra]

Why can't we just get a message at the beginning of the campaign saying: "Do this, this and this to take the next step in the reforms for your factions"... :-(

[Simpelicity]

mmmmmwell it could be in the description of the faction I suppose. In a more vague way of course. Just describing what you should be aiming for during your campaign.

[Samson224]

Saba reform happens when these conditions are met:
1.) Saba capital has under 30% of faction culture
2.) The capital has either Adim malkan (Bondsmen of the king) or Mahrab Malkan (Royal Court) government building
3.) A character is in the capital at the end of the turn

- The most likely (and easiest) scenario is that the reform takes place in Maryab, where is Mahrab Malkan building from the beginning, when the eastern tribal states culture drops under 30%

- If you lose or change your capital, then you'll have to build Adim malkan building in your capital (can't build Mahrab Malkan before the reforms). It can only be built in Arabia and Ethiopia (hidden resource arabian or ethiopia).


I'm quite sure about this, but it's always good to to have confirmation.

[Simpelicity]

Well, in a rare occurence both time and interest have coincided. I'm patching to 2.4 to check it out later. Assuming I still have time later. At least it'll be patched for the next time I have time and am motivated. So yeah I'll double-check Samson, thx for telling me though

[Simpelicity]

Okay I started reading the campaign script and comparing with OP, and right in the first script (Rome), you have these couple lines :

monitor_event PostBattle FactionType f_rome
and TargetFactionType f_carthage

Does "FactionType" mean it has to be this faction's turn? Maybe, maybe not. This script makes it look like it. But it's not definitive either. It's just that if "FactionType" could detect the other guy as well as the guy who's turn it is, then why use "TargetFactionType" instead of "FactionType" again?

[Simpelicity]

I have verified the script for Rome, Baktria and Pontos. Baktria needed some corrections (that punitive expedition is new, and the tribute seems to have increased), otherwise I'm just adding the fact that it probably needs to be your turn, and against family members, for the battles to count.

I will continue later if interest and time coincide again. Provided the game isn't patched some more by then. Y'all feel free to continue checking other factions though ^.^

[delra]

There's some inconsequence in the Pritanoi reform.

1. (Among other things) You need three level 3 temples to reform.
2. In order to build them, you need to upgrade your government to level three.
3. To upgrade the government, you first need to build a market level three.
4. For the reform itself, only two markets level three are required.

You'll basically always have more markets than needed for the reform, because you need them to upgrade the government and then the temple. The market requirement is redundant here, it has to be met in order for other requirements to be met. If you have temples at that level, it means you also have the same amount of markets of that level. You can as well drop the Market Requirement from the script, or change it to another building (waystations+garrisons for example).

It takes quite some time to accomplish, as you need three of your cities to triple in size (to 6k) before you can go on the lengthy route of upgrading the market, then the government, then the temple there. It takes 120 turns for the growth itself, then two dozen turns to get all the buildings in line. I did it on turn 148. I think it could maybe be done a little faster, but not by much. The timing seems just fine to me.

The kingdom government is absolute crap compared to the previous government:
- 1/4 of old government's happiness.
- NO free upkeep slots at all.

Basically, in terms of the government form, you're heavily downgrading rather than reforming. I think Prit Kingdom needs to be buffed quite a bit.

Other than that, the reforms work fine and as described in the OP.

[Simpelicity]

I am not changing the OP for that, unless they change the script. But that's a good observation.

Something else : some "Germanic Reforms" were added, they work for both Lugia and Sweboz, simultaneously. Now then, descr_events doesn't advance the SwebozEra anymore, so that's fine (even though the text saying that that's where it's advanced is still in the Reforms section of campaign-script). The previous lugian script is still there though, but they don't increase the same eventcounter. One increases LugiaEra, and the new Germanic reforms increase LugianEra. So, what's going on with the german eras?