Page 17 of 43 FirstFirst ... 78910111213141516171819202122232425262742 ... LastLast
Results 321 to 340 of 844

Thread: [Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

  1. #321
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    5,590

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    When in doubt, you can always teleport some rebels from Germania to Ankyra and defeat these to score points.

    I am pretty sure it doesn't matter whether it's on the Seleucid or the player's turn... but not 100% sure. I could swear I got points defending from AS all the same as when attacking them.

  2. #322

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Sounds like y'all are having a grand ol' discussion in here ^.^

    I've changed Koinon Hellenon to indicate the correct Archon-able settlements. Gimme a holler if this discussion leads to any breakthroughs
    On a side note, I wouldn't think FactionType means it has to be that faction's turn. It says Type, not Turn.

  3. #323

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Doesn`t the pergamon reform have to be 80 turns as well as the battles/cities? or is that redundant now also?

  4. #324

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ribtickler View Post
    Doesn`t the pergamon reform have to be 80 turns as well as the battles/cities? or is that redundant now also?
    No, that's not the Kingship reform, that's the Era reform, which does nothing at all.

  5. #325

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    No, that's not the Kingship reform, that's the Era reform, which does nothing at all.
    So both turn dates are obsolete now? its just that it mentions 80 turns in the descr file under reforms.i remember the other being 160 turns(I think).

  6. #326

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Nah, moving eleuthoroi armies to gallatia doesnt work because they are not gallatians. I tried but without success.

    Well anyway 2.04 is here. I hope I have more luck in that one. Thaks for the help anyway.

    By the way o na side ntoe about the change, 1000 soldiers isnt hard to reach at all unless you play normal I think. In large (the one I use) most infantry units are already arround a hundred soldiers and phalanghitai are 181 so half stack is ussually enough. So it may be a nice number.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  7. #327

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Ribtickler View Post
    So both turn dates are obsolete now? its just that it mentions 80 turns in the descr file under reforms.i remember the other being 160 turns(I think).
    They were always obsolete, nothing was ever attached to them. Those first four monitors in the script don't do anything. They were going to be associated with unit changes for Pergamon, but that was superceded by a wider Hellenistic Military Reform for all Hellenistic factions.

    The conditions of the Pergamon Kingship Reform, as of 2.04 are:
    Win three major battles (defined as your army being at least 1000 men and the enemy at least 11 units) against the Seleukids (anywhere) and/or the Galatians (in Galatia).
    Hold Pergamon, Ipsos, Sardis, Nikaia and Ankyra.

  8. #328
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    5,590

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    What are the middle and high kingdom reforms for, then? What do they give?

  9. #329

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    What are the middle and high kingdom reforms for, then? What do they give?
    Nothing at all. They are entirely redundant.

    Once upon a time, they were supposed to control what units Pergamon got access to.

    That was never implemented, and now all Hellenistic factions get theirs via the same reform.

  10. #330

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I think Pontos should not have have requirement for reforms to get to Crimea..Historically they did, but why it should be requirement?!...After they acquire enough lands around (and let say certain number of Hellenistic provinces) they will have big enough state to claim kingdom and reforms...
    Tribal Total War

  11. #331
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    5,590

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Nothing at all. They are entirely redundant.

    Once upon a time, they were supposed to control what units Pergamon got access to.

    That was never implemented, and now all Hellenistic factions get theirs via the same reform.
    Edit them out of the OP? :-D

    Also, am I the only one who thinks that classical Greek units are way better in the battle map than reformed ones?

  12. #332

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Well, I have been wondering about that too. In theory both new ones should be better ccomapred to hoplites. They lose 1/2 points of armor but get more shield, more defence skill, javelins, more mobility and more stamina. One of the new ones has swords that is better agianst infantry so you have more versatility.

    In the other hand they have less morale, training and discipline. I think even less mass (not sure though). This makes them easier to rout and more spread formations ussually perform worse in combat and get pushed more easily.

    I forgot, campaign wise hoplites have free upkeep while the others do not. That makes the former a lot more interesting for garrisons speccially having in account the performance differences arent that great and that hoplites are better in choke points due to compact formations.

    Euzonoi is a clear improve though. Better morale, damage and defences while keeping free upkeep. Using them is a no brainer. Once the reform triggers they are your skirmishers.
    Last edited by Jervaj; July 26, 2015 at 01:19 PM.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  13. #333

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Thureophoroi are not the replacement for Hoplitai, not really. They're the in-between unit bridging the space between hoplite and skirmisher. The Hoplitai's reformed equivalent is the Thorakitai, which we don't have yet.

    Euzonoi are actually a picked elite from the Akontistai, so if you're fielding a credible, rather than optimal army, you shouldn't really take more than one unit of Euzonoi, and for any other javelineers, Akontistai.

  14. #334

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I thought euzonoi better quality was mostly due to better equipment. And maybe a bit more training. Been represented as quite cheap seems strange not to use several units of them.

    Actually I barelly use Akontistai but at the very start of a campaign. Not that much impact and so easy to rout.
    Actually I think is part of my nature. I ussually have problems to keep realistic due to my somewhat aversion to leves. They just dont seem that cost-effective to me.
    Its strange because in the east Im fine with locals, they seem effective and I enjoy using them. But in the west I use my initial armies but I hardly ever recruit akonkistai, toxotai, or hippakonkistai. Until the thureos reform the cheaper units I ussually use are hoplitai and toxotai kretikoi filling the rest with logades/peltastai and epikiletoi/phalangitai depending on faction. And for cavalry hippeis or xistophoroi.

    Maybe the refresh rates are too high xD

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  15. #335
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    5,590

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    The best skirmishers are slingers. Check the numbers of kills after each battle and you'll see your Kretans aren't inflicting even half of the casualties that your slingers are... Slingers have good range, they have AP, they are cheap as hell, and when you route enemy army, you want that sort of quick unit to chase them down.

    I generally avoid using javelin-throwing units as their animation pisses me off (they run forward to throw, then don't come back to formation, so I have to keep reforming and repositioning them so they don't mess my line). You can have a couple of Logades/Peltasts on each flank with the idea of using them as if they were Hastati with an extra throw... but for the bulk of ranged kills you should look towards slingers. You can use the mass of Akontistai to confuse and tie down battle AI, but that's cheap and lame exploit.

    Try the following test in Custom battle (don't move units, one line, no skirmish, autofire):
    1. 5x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    2. 5x kretans vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    3. 5x standard archers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    4. 3x standard archers + 3x standard slingers vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    5. 5x logades vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    6. 5x akontistai vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    7. 5x Euzonoi vs 1x Carth Dorks.
    8. 5x Equites Sabelli (jav cav) vs 1x Carth Dorks.

    You will notice the following:
    - Standard archers and Kretans = no difference at all in performance here. Both kill at the same rate. Accuracy, morale, defence are all lol stats that don't matter provided you don't allow your archers into melee.
    - Slingers kill faster than archers. Side by side (3+3vs1) comparison shows 2-3x more kills from slingers than from archers.
    - Logades are able to kill a couple dozen enemies with their javelins before the lines meet, then they are forced into melee. Even 5 to 1 they fail to obliterate the charging enemy.
    - Akontistai are actually better than Logades (2x more javelins thrown) but still waaaay worse than slingers or archers.
    - Not much difference between Euzonoi and Akontistai, at least none that I can see.
    - Javelin cavalry sucketh.
    - Dorks are way softer than you think. :-D

    In summary:
    - Don't get crazy over javelins, treat Logades and similar units as if they were Hastati.
    - Don't overpay for Kretans, buy regular slingers and archers instead.
    - The best ranged units for Pergamon aren't fancy Kretans or fancy Logades but Sphendonetai, their upkeep = 41. :-D

  16. #336

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Slinger are not AP anymore but they do have good atack.

    The good thing about Kretans is not that they kill a lot more than the others (thought better than toxotai) but that they have better shield and armour what means they ussually win in ranged exchanges. Together with nice atack and morale once out of arrows they can support the front line effectivelly where you most need it. The psiloi are basically useless once out of ammo. You can just entertain enemy units for some time.
    I dont know why you assume that you wont allow kretes into mellee when thats what they are made for.

    I dont use Logades or peltastai as an skirmisher. I dont even know if theres even possible to use them like that. They have low ammon and charge after launching their javelins. They are my versatile infatry. They cover holes in the line, cover the flanks of hoplites, phalanxes, emergency block for enemy cavalry that was able to pass my line, etc

    Slingers have higher atack than archers so theres no need to test to know they will inflict more casualities. Though direct fire is sometimes problematic and can cause notably more casualities to your own troops than the others.
    Javelinners are the most damaging ones due to numbers and projectile type. Speccially against big targets like cavalry they seem the best. Their problem is their short range but my experience has shown that a well placed volley can be devastating.
    Euzonoi can even go to melee and do something too. And they are still rather cheap.

    Dont misunderstand me I do use sphendotai, is just pergamon has quite easy acces to kretans opposed to others and I just prefer those.
    I dont udnerstand why sphendotai are so absurdly cheap. They should be more equal o the other psiloi.
    Last edited by Jervaj; July 26, 2015 at 04:01 PM.

    We will either find a way, or make one.


  17. #337

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    A lot of misconceptions about skirmishers here. The primary purpose of skirmishers is to tie up the enemy's skirmishers, not to take down line infantry. If your skirmishers are targeting armoured and/or shielded units, you're wasting their ammunition. That none of them are terribly effective against such targets (especially from the front) is by design.

    Psiloi aren't supposed to be effective melee combatants - they're barely-trained levies with no armour and often no better weapon than a knife. That's the reason they're so cheap. Slingers are even cheaper because their units are smaller than other levies.

    Kretan archers have a pretty significant advantage over regular Toxotai: their range is quite a bit longer. They're also much more useful when out of ammo, since they're effective in melee.

    The most effective place for a javelin volley is from behind a unit. They're not supposed to be able to stop a charge of line infantry, and certainly aren't intended to wipe them out either. If you're throwing them at a unit coming towards you, that's the very worst place to be doing it from, so it's hardly surprising that it's ineffective. The animation is realistic, you need the momentum of a run-up to impart a poweful throw.

    Javelin cavalry was broken in 2.03k because of the adjustment to the skirmishing distance to accomodate horse archers. Unfortunately, CA only provided one value for all skirmish cavalry, what's a nice distance to ensure horse archers can stay beyond the range of a charge is too far for javelineers to be able to throw. In 2.04 that's been reduced; but it will mean horse archers are more likely to get caught off-guard.

    There's an intentional balance between javelins and arrows/slingshot. You have to get closer, but they're more damaging. Again you have to be in the right place, and preferably not against line infantry.

  18. #338

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    There also seem to be misconceptions about the purpose of this thread...

    Confirmation that the early-mid-late eras of Pergamon have been scrapped, before I scrap it off the OP?

  19. #339
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts
    5,590

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Well, QS confirmed it just above. So you can scrap the thing.

    Pergamon gets two reforms: 1. Fighting AS/Galatia. 2. Thureos reform like all other Greeks.

    Middle/high kingdom should be removed and replaced with a mention of the generic Greek/Thureos reforms.

  20. #340

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    Well, QS confirmed it just above. So you can scrap the thing.

    Pergamon gets two reforms: 1. Fighting AS/Galatia. 2. Thureos reform like all other Greeks.

    Middle/high kingdom should be removed and replaced with a mention of the generic Greek/Thureos reforms.
    Correct. If we come up with something new to do with Pergamon's Era-reforms, then I'll let you all know. But for the time being, remove reference to it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •