[Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

[QuintusSertorius]

Ah, I checked the script again; it's not just the battles. They're part of it, but you also need to own Nikaia, Pergamon, Sardis, Ipsos and Galatia.

[delra]

Maybe your army was too small?

Funny that you still need to "colonize" Pergamon itself in order to upgrade the government to the kingdom there. Another thing is, 21 settlements size is quite steep for this reform. It's like all of Asia Minor and Greece, so you don't get reformed until after you've already beaten everyone already. Maybe we could lower that a bit?

[QuintusSertorius]

Maybe your army was too small?

Funny that you still need to "colonize" Pergamon itself in order to upgrade the government to the kingdom there. Another thing is, 21 settlements size is quite steep for this reform. It's like all of Asia Minor and Greece, so you don't get reformed until after you've already beaten everyone already. Maybe we could lower that a bit?

It's not 21 settlements for the reform, that's for the redundant Late Era. You need those five I listed above for the Kingship reform.

[Jervaj]

I kept track of it and in the last battle during the expedition (obviously the one with the smallest numbers) was 1061 units.
In theory over 1000 is ok. Even if it were 1500 like for galatians the second battle should have gotten message as it was over 1600 troops there.

The settlements number is for eras that for now seem to have 0 effect accoridng to what Quintus said.
The good thing for Pergamon is that in asia minor theres already a lot of colonies, together with you having metropolis from the start and another bordering, so settlements are in general easy to hellenize except Gallatia and the one from Pontus that take a while due to the low starting levels.

[QuintusSertorius]

The number of troops is your army, not the enemy. For both Seleukids and Galatians, the requirement is 11 or more units.

I'm going to lower it to 1000 for both - for the Galatian monitor it's currently 1500. You also have to defeat the Galatian army in Galatia.

[Jervaj]

Those I posted were the numbers of my army indeed.

The enemies were always 3/4 of stack so no problem of units there.

The gallatian thing is clear because I fighted those stacks outside of galatia when they came in to Ipsos to atack me.

The problem is the seleuicd thing. Seen everything is correct Im starting to believe more that it had to do with not been the players turn. As those two atacked my army, not the opposite.

[QuintusSertorius]

Those I posted were the numbers of my army indeed.

The enemies were always 3/4 of stack so no problem of units there.

The gallatian thing is clear because I fighted those stacks outside of galatia when they came in to Ipsos to atack me.

The problem is the seleuicd thing. Seen everything is correct Im starting to believe more that it had to do with not been the players turn. As those two atacked my army, not the opposite.

Possibly, I'm not entirely sure how the conditions work:

monitor_event PostBattle FactionType f_pergamon

I suspect the FactionType condition means it has to be on that faction's turn.

[delra]

When in doubt, you can always teleport some rebels from Germania to Ankyra and defeat these to score points.

I am pretty sure it doesn't matter whether it's on the Seleucid or the player's turn... but not 100% sure. I could swear I got points defending from AS all the same as when attacking them.

[Simpelicity]

Sounds like y'all are having a grand ol' discussion in here ^.^

I've changed Koinon Hellenon to indicate the correct Archon-able settlements. Gimme a holler if this discussion leads to any breakthroughs
On a side note, I wouldn't think FactionType means it has to be that faction's turn. It says Type, not Turn.

[Ribtickler]

Doesn`t the pergamon reform have to be 80 turns as well as the battles/cities? or is that redundant now also?

[QuintusSertorius]

Doesn`t the pergamon reform have to be 80 turns as well as the battles/cities? or is that redundant now also?

No, that's not the Kingship reform, that's the Era reform, which does nothing at all.

[Ribtickler]

No, that's not the Kingship reform, that's the Era reform, which does nothing at all.

So both turn dates are obsolete now? its just that it mentions 80 turns in the descr file under reforms.i remember the other being 160 turns(I think).

[QuintusSertorius]

So both turn dates are obsolete now? its just that it mentions 80 turns in the descr file under reforms.i remember the other being 160 turns(I think).

They were always obsolete, nothing was ever attached to them. Those first four monitors in the script don't do anything. They were going to be associated with unit changes for Pergamon, but that was superceded by a wider Hellenistic Military Reform for all Hellenistic factions.

The conditions of the Pergamon Kingship Reform, as of 2.04 are:
Win three major battles (defined as your army being at least 1000 men and the enemy at least 11 units) against the Seleukids (anywhere) and/or the Galatians (in Galatia).
Hold Pergamon, Ipsos, Sardis, Nikaia and Ankyra.

[Jervaj]

Nah, moving eleuthoroi armies to gallatia doesnt work because they are not gallatians. I tried but without success.

Well anyway 2.04 is here. I hope I have more luck in that one. Thaks for the help anyway.

By the way o na side ntoe about the change, 1000 soldiers isnt hard to reach at all unless you play normal I think. In large (the one I use) most infantry units are already arround a hundred soldiers and phalanghitai are 181 so half stack is ussually enough. So it may be a nice number.

[delra]

What are the middle and high kingdom reforms for, then? What do they give?

[QuintusSertorius]

What are the middle and high kingdom reforms for, then? What do they give?

Nothing at all. They are entirely redundant.

Once upon a time, they were supposed to control what units Pergamon got access to.

That was never implemented, and now all Hellenistic factions get theirs via the same reform.

[4th Regiment]

I think Pontos should not have have requirement for reforms to get to Crimea..Historically they did, but why it should be requirement?!...After they acquire enough lands around (and let say certain number of Hellenistic provinces) they will have big enough state to claim kingdom and reforms...

[delra]

Nothing at all. They are entirely redundant.

Once upon a time, they were supposed to control what units Pergamon got access to.

That was never implemented, and now all Hellenistic factions get theirs via the same reform.

Edit them out of the OP? :-D

Also, am I the only one who thinks that classical Greek units are way better in the battle map than reformed ones?

[Jervaj]

Well, I have been wondering about that too. In theory both new ones should be better ccomapred to hoplites. They lose 1/2 points of armor but get more shield, more defence skill, javelins, more mobility and more stamina. One of the new ones has swords that is better agianst infantry so you have more versatility.

In the other hand they have less morale, training and discipline. I think even less mass (not sure though). This makes them easier to rout and more spread formations ussually perform worse in combat and get pushed more easily.

I forgot, campaign wise hoplites have free upkeep while the others do not. That makes the former a lot more interesting for garrisons speccially having in account the performance differences arent that great and that hoplites are better in choke points due to compact formations.

Euzonoi is a clear improve though. Better morale, damage and defences while keeping free upkeep. Using them is a no brainer. Once the reform triggers they are your skirmishers.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thureophoroi are not the replacement for Hoplitai, not really. They're the in-between unit bridging the space between hoplite and skirmisher. The Hoplitai's reformed equivalent is the Thorakitai, which we don't have yet.

Euzonoi are actually a picked elite from the Akontistai, so if you're fielding a credible, rather than optimal army, you shouldn't really take more than one unit of Euzonoi, and for any other javelineers, Akontistai.