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Thread: [Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

  1. #241

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Ah, danm. That should be it. As I saw the initial post was edidted I thought I would be updated. I will have to start over again

    Thanks for your help Quintus

  2. #242

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I conquered Korinth and Syracuse at least 5 times in order to test out whether the congress reform would work correctly.

  3. #243
    Titus le Chmakus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Hi

    After searching I couldn't find any infos on the new units ... Are the Marian (and Imperial) troops going to be included in the summer release ?

    Thanks

  4. #244
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus le Chmakus View Post
    Hi

    After searching I couldn't find any infos on the new units ... Are the Marian (and Imperial) troops going to be included in the summer release ?

    Thanks
    Short answer: no.

    Long answer: There might be a full Polybian roster in the upcoming summer release (adding to the current Camillan units), but the Marian units are not a short-term goal for the team, as there are other factions that are in a much more dire need of units than the Romans are. The Imperial units might even be scrapped from EB II altogether, although I believe the team hasn't made a full decision on that issue yet.

    NOTE: I am not a member of the EB II team myself and what I wrote here is based on information provided by team on this forum and in other places.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  5. #245

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Short answer: no.

    Long answer: There might be a full Polybian roster in the upcoming summer release (adding to the current Camillan units), but the Marian units are not a short-term goal for the team, as there are other factions that are in a much more dire need of units than the Romans are. The Imperial units might even be scrapped from EB II altogether, although I believe the team hasn't made a full decision on that issue yet.

    NOTE: I am not a member of the EB II team myself and what I wrote here is based on information provided by team on this forum and in other places.
    I'm certainly in favour of scrapping the Imperial roster altogether, I think it's a complete waste of time and effort (and unit slots) for the sake of something no one will ever see. But mine is just one voice, that's not the official line at all.

    But as to the question, as we've said many, many times, the Marian roster is not a priority when the Polybian roster isn't even finished. And in any case, it's a much lower priority than many other units for other factions which don't even have a complete starting roster (Getai, Hayasdan, etc), never mind getting a reform-based change to their entire roster.

  6. #246
    Titus le Chmakus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I'm certainly in favour of scrapping the Imperial roster altogether, I think it's a complete waste of time and effort (and unit slots) for the sake of something no one will ever see. But mine is just one voice, that's not the official line at all.

    But as to the question, as we've said many, many times, the Marian roster is not a priority when the Polybian roster isn't even finished. And in any case, it's a much lower priority than many other units for other factions which don't even have a complete starting roster (Getai, Hayasdan, etc), never mind getting a reform-based change to their entire roster.
    Well having a look to the period used in EBII, it is totally understandable that you will not use the Imperial reform. On the other hand, the Marian one is the most awaited from all the players who want to play as Rome ! Because it is the funniest part of their period !
    But for sure, if you haven't finished the basic roster for some factions, then we cannot ask for some late roman reforms ! Anyway thanks for the job already done ! And keep it up for the rest !

  7. #247

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus le Chmakus View Post
    Well having a look to the period used in EBII, it is totally understandable that you will not use the Imperial reform. On the other hand, the Marian one is the most awaited from all the players who want to play as Rome ! Because it is the funniest part of their period !
    But for sure, if you haven't finished the basic roster for some factions, then we cannot ask for some late roman reforms ! Anyway thanks for the job already done ! And keep it up for the rest !
    My personal opinion is that factions like the Romans should have priority over the small regional powers when it comes to fleshing out units. The first EB had a fetish for hyphenated barbarian units, e.g. iberi-kelto-hellenic-elite-skirmisher-heavy infantry, where you could tell that someone got really carried away by his own imagination.

  8. #248
    Titus le Chmakus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    That's right ! Maybe the EB team should keep in mind that this mod is here to replace a crappy CA original R2TW game ! So we want to play Romans, Greeks and Egyptians again !!!

  9. #249
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Thuycidides View Post
    My personal opinion is that factions like the Romans should have priority over the small regional powers when it comes to fleshing out units. The first EB had a fetish for hyphenated barbarian units, e.g. iberi-kelto-hellenic-elite-skirmisher-heavy infantry, where you could tell that someone got really carried away by his own imagination.
    With this I disagree: I think the EB team should focus on (regional) units shared by several factions first, as this benefits several factions at once immediately. Adding one or several Thracian units for example would immediately impact the campaign of at least three factions (Pergamon, Getai and Makedonia) and several other ones relatively close by. Adding Marian units by contrast only impacts one faction and said impact requires waiting at least several hundreds of turns before it can be felt. One tenet in the philosophy of this mod is that all factions receive the attention they deserve and focusing only on the Romans would go against this idea.

    As to the historicity of several EB units, yeah at times it was quite dubious (anyone remember the Vasci elites? ), but cultural exchange certainly happened during this timeframe (although I agree EB probably went somewhat overboard on this front). Having said all that, this question is probably best answered by someone more knowledgeable on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus le Chmakus View Post
    That's right ! Maybe the EB team should keep in mind that this mod is here to replace a crappy CA original R2TW game ! So we want to play Romans, Greeks and Egyptians again !!!
    Sorry dude, but EB II began its development several years before Rome 2 was even announced. The two entities are fundamentally independent from one another and the EB team has no obligation towards anyone disappointed with Rome 2.

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm really curious about the fascination several people seem to have with the Marian and Imperial Roman units (which I personally don't find all that interesting anymore these days). I'm thinking about opening a seperate thread on the matter to avoid this one from going too far off-topic.

    EDIT: Thread created over here. I suggest we move this discussion.
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; June 18, 2015 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Link added.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  10. #250

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    With this I disagree. I think the EB team should focus on (regional) units shared by several factions first, as this benefits several factions at once immediately. Adding one or several Thracian units for example would immediately impact the campaign of at least three factions (Pergamon, Getai and Makedonia) and several other ones relatively close by. Adding Marian units by contrast only impacts one faction and said impact requires waiting at least several hundreds of turns before it can be felt. One tenet in the philosophy of this mod is that all factions receive the attention they deserve and focusing only on the Romans would go against this idea.
    Indeed, the six planned Thraikian units would fill out a further third of the Getai's roster; add regionals that would impact Getai, Boii, Makedonia, Epeiros, Pergamon, Bosporans, Pontos, Seleukids, Ptolemaioi and Koinon Hellenon; and also add new units to at least four mercenary pools. It would do this from the very start of the game, for the entire duration of the game.

    By contrast adding Marian Roman units impacts one faction; adds no regional units (though it removes the Italic regionals); adds nothing to the mercenary rosters (again removes the Italic troops as they appear). This doesn't happen until roughly 700 turns into the game.

  11. #251
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I do agree with you 2 ! Focusing on several factions is much more important than focusing just on one of them, that is totally understandable. But the only thing is that we are talking about romans ! ROMANS guys ! The best civilization of the period !!! It would be like creating a soccer game without Real Madrid or and NBA game without San Antonio ... You are just leaving aside the best (or supposingly) units of the whole game. I'm just talking about Marian reform, not Imperial as it is useless I know.

    Btw, historically, the Marian reform is essential in Rome's developpment. They have never been so dominant than after Marius came to reform the roman army, making it the first professional ever. And you would like to avoid an event that changed the face of the antique world ? That is what is not understandable in your views !

    I hope you don't take this as an offence as it is not my goal ! I just wanted to try to convince you . Anyway thanks for the job.

  12. #252

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus le Chmakus View Post
    I do agree with you 2 ! Focusing on several factions is much more important than focusing just on one of them, that is totally understandable. But the only thing is that we are talking about romans ! ROMANS guys ! The best civilization of the period !!! It would be like creating a soccer game without Real Madrid or and NBA game without San Antonio ... You are just leaving aside the best (or supposingly) units of the whole game. I'm just talking about Marian reform, not Imperial as it is useless I know.

    Btw, historically, the Marian reform is essential in Rome's developpment. They have never been so dominant than after Marius came to reform the roman army, making it the first professional ever. And you would like to avoid an event that changed the face of the antique world ? That is what is not understandable in your views !

    I hope you don't take this as an offence as it is not my goal ! I just wanted to try to convince you . Anyway thanks for the job.
    You're greatly over-estimating the impact of the Marian Reform, and the significance of the Marian legionaries themselves.

    We're not avoiding them, we're saying other factions starting positions are a great deal more important than something occurring nearly 700 turns into the game.

  13. #253
    Titus le Chmakus's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    You are right ! Thanks for the precisions. After searching a bit on the web, I found that the Sumerians did have the first professional army !

  14. #254

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus le Chmakus View Post
    I do agree with you 2 ! Focusing on several factions is much more important than focusing just on one of them, that is totally understandable. But the only thing is that we are talking about romans ! ROMANS guys ! The best civilization of the period !!! It would be like creating a soccer game without Real Madrid or and NBA game without San Antonio ... You are just leaving aside the best (or supposingly) units of the whole game. I'm just talking about Marian reform, not Imperial as it is useless I know.

    Btw, historically, the Marian reform is essential in Rome's developpment. They have never been so dominant than after Marius came to reform the roman army, making it the first professional ever. And you would like to avoid an event that changed the face of the antique world ? That is what is not understandable in your views !

    I hope you don't take this as an offence as it is not my goal ! I just wanted to try to convince you . Anyway thanks for the job.
    What people seem to forget a lot is that EB focuses on earlier peroid than Roman dominance. Marian reforms occured around 107 BC (the process was a bit more gradual), which is nearly 700 turns into game. Most of players will be done by then. Although the Rome did go from unimportant wannabe-hellenic state (at least according to Greeks) to the important player in Mediterranean, most of the time they were using typical Polybian system (although it was already breaking down during Punic wars, and headed toward more monolithic equipment which was ratified by Marian reforms).

    Anyway, back to topic...where can I find what exactly (especially regarding the rosters) reforms do as of now (2.03c)?

  15. #255

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    The reforms are found in the campaign_script file under EBII\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign\campaign_script.txt.
    The buildings can be found in the export_descr_buildings.txt file under EBII\data\export_descr_buildings.txt.

    If you're not familiar with reading the M2TW script (an older version of Python), just tell me what you want to look up and I'll look it up for you.

  16. #256

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylon View Post
    The reforms are found in the campaign_script file under EBII\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign\campaign_script.txt.
    The buildings can be found in the export_descr_buildings.txt file under EBII\data\export_descr_buildings.txt.

    If you're not familiar with reading the M2TW script (an older version of Python), just tell me what you want to look up and I'll look it up for you.
    Thanks. I can read the very basic things, but still getting lost in it. I'm interested in roster changes for Thureos reform and what the Pegamon reforms do. And why the hell can't I, at the start of campaign, recruit phalangitai (they don't show up anywhere, not even in the most advanced government buildings or hellenistic metropolis) as Epiros and Macedonia, even in the core regions (Pella, Corinth, Ambrakia).

  17. #257

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Thanks. I can read the very basic things, but still getting lost in it. I'm interested in roster changes for Thureos reform and what the Pegamon reforms do.
    If you want to know what units you can recruit, and where, the file you want is the export_descr_buildings.txt. Any unit with and event_counter ThureosReform 1 next to it isn't available til after the reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    And why the hell can't I, at the start of campaign, recruit phalangitai (they don't show up anywhere, not even in the most advanced government buildings or hellenistic metropolis) as Epiros and Macedonia, even in the core regions (Pella, Corinth, Ambrakia).
    You should check the changelogs for the latest patches, you'd see Hellenistic recruitment has been completely changed, such that you don't get factional troops from your government buildings any more (barring elites at the top tier) they come from polis and colony buildings. Professional troops come from the colonies, levies and semi-professionals from the polis.

    As for Phalangitai, they're only available with a factional government in Pella, Alexandreia or Antiocheia. For anywhere else you have to build a helcol_two or above. Or make do with mercenary phalangitai or one of the lesser phalangites. This is an intentional change, Makedonian Phalangitai were not commonly available cannon fodder, but a scare resource which was the subject of serious foreign policy. You could only recruit them were there were sufficient concentrations of Makedonians or Makedonian settlers.

    As Makedonia you can recruit them in Pella, as soon as you install a factional government there. As Epeiros, you can only recruit them quickly if you take Pella. Otherwise you need a settlement with a Hellenistic Metropolis (like Korinthos for Makedonia) and you need to start building Hellenistic Colonies.

  18. #258
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    As Makedonia you can recruit them in Pella, as soon as you install a factional government there.
    Seems to be a bit weird shouldn't there be a factional goverment in Pella do begin with,it being a home province?I mean you should be able to get phalangitai in Pella from the start its not like it's a new thing for them.
    Elder Scrolls Online :Messing up the Lore since 2007...

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  19. #259

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Sint View Post
    Seems to be a bit weird shouldn't there be a factional goverment in Pella do begin with,it being a home province?I mean you should be able to get phalangitai in Pella from the start its not like it's a new thing for them.
    Not weird at all; Antigonos has only just moved in and Pella is a bit of a mess in the aftermath of the Gallic invasion of the Balkans. He has yet to establish his authority.

  20. #260
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Ah ok ,btw is it normal that I could build a colonie in Pella,Demetrias and Korinthos despite it saying no colonie were a polis is?
    Elder Scrolls Online :Messing up the Lore since 2007...

    Well overhand or underhand: 3:50 Onwards...

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