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Thread: [Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

  1. #221
    alin's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by torzsoktamas View Post
    How does the germanic reform for the units work?As in what needs to be done?
    Generally wouldn't hurt for some guides for reforms of factions.Now we know how the hellenistic reforms work(essentially waiting turns),but how deas the others work?
    It says in the main post, nothing, random after x turns as it's a late reform.

  2. #222
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    A lot of reforms are just a waiting game still and, while that's not great for interactivity, that's pretty in line with the nature of how these cultures changed (just over time).

  3. #223

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Bastard Feudalism View Post
    A lot of reforms are just a waiting game still and, while that's not great for interactivity, that's pretty in line with the nature of how these cultures changed (just over time).
    Indeed, it's also much easier to script something that's merely time-based. At the very least, as a placeholder for a more involved reform. But even then it's likely to have some sort of minimum date so that you can't game the reforms and get the better units really early. It wouldn't be very interesting if you could engineer a faction's major reform within the first ten turns of the game. I'm very much of the view that blitzing or attempting to game the mechanics shouldn't be rewarded.

  4. #224
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Reform requirements

    It would be best to, at a minimum, have a message that not only alerts the player but informs him of the historical precedent behind this event.

    I'd go further and like to see some minimum of player interaction once the proper time has arrived (with a message explaining this). For some of these I'd like to see the necessity of ending a turn with a family character (or perhaps a diplomat/politician agent) in, or just outside of a particular city for reform events that can be linked to contact with some particular place/treaty/exchange of ideas/marriage/whatever.

    More quests that could be initiated for a purpose would only add to the game, even if largely symbolic. But I can imagine a scenario where a faction leader needs to get through hostile territory to replicate the setting in motion of events that lead to reform XYZ. Do you risk him for this important landmark occasion, or wait until circumstances are better? Try diplomacy to quell hostilities in the area first? Draw hostile forces away from the region/route with an attack elsewhere? There are all kinds of potentially fun gameplay situations (that would take care of themselves) that may arise from such a mechanic.

  5. #225

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Woah stickied? What happened there?

    I need to get back into the swing of things, I had stopped playing waiting for updates, so I hadn't been around as much, and hadn't been updating the thread...

    I updated main post with the test results for Pritanoi and Saka, although I would like more information from you Floren (or anyone else for that matter) because the saka reforms remain rather mysterious... what was stopping the reforms from working? What made them trigger? Did the first 2 reforms really trigger together?

    I'll check out if there were any changes to the reforms with 2.02 when I have time. I hear the makedonian reform has appeared, but it wasn't elaborated on much. I'll see what's up with that

  6. #226

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    Woah stickied? What happened there?

    I need to get back into the swing of things, I had stopped playing waiting for updates, so I hadn't been around as much, and hadn't been updating the thread...

    I updated main post with the test results for Pritanoi and Saka, although I would like more information from you Floren (or anyone else for that matter) because the saka reforms remain rather mysterious... what was stopping the reforms from working? What made them trigger? Did the first 2 reforms really trigger together?

    I'll check out if there were any changes to the reforms with 2.02 when I have time. I hear the makedonian reform has appeared, but it wasn't elaborated on much. I'll see what's up with that
    Some of the reforms in the scripts for 2.01 were rather...interesting in the way they were written. I'm fairly confident with 2.02d (coming soon) we should have reviewed and refined all of them. The Saka Reform was one with a faulty closing monitor, so may not have been possible to complete.

    I did include the Thureos Reform for Hellenistic factions (not just Makedonia) - it happens around turn 60. You might also notice none of the thureos-using troops are available at the start of the game (to recruit or as mercs). Their appearance also has an impact on the recruitment of Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai (which it depresses, since they're drawing from the same class of people).

  7. #227

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    People have been reporting diplomat spam; I think I'll curtail that by making the added availability of them only apply to the human player. Since you've got money to worry about still, no scripted debt-relief.

  8. #228

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    All right, I finally had time to install 2.02c and look at the reforms. I have updated the OP with the Thureos reform, as well as the new conditions for Baktrian and Hayasdan independance. A few general notes from what I could (or couldn't) read :

    - I did not see a script for the late hellenistic reform. I looked at the whole reform section, but just there, so if it's somewhere else then I just missed it. If it's supposed to be in there... it's missing.

    - Pergamon is not included in the Thureos reform. An oversight or a design choice?

    - The forgiveness event for both independance "reforms" seem unnecessarily harsh. As it is, it only fires when you're 1 settlement short (same battle counter though). I imagine it's to make forgiveness come later, I can see that being logical, but the way it's written right now it can also never happen (it is conceivable to get 3 settlements before 6 victories...). I would suggest to make it so it triggers when you're 1 settlement short, OR 1 battle short, OR both (but seperately). Both means it can happen twice, but that's not a huge deal I think. Point is, it still triggers late, but it always triggers.

  9. #229

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    All right, I finally had time to install 2.02c and look at the reforms. I have updated the OP with the Thureos reform, as well as the new conditions for Baktrian and Hayasdan independance. A few general notes from what I could (or couldn't) read :

    - I did not see a script for the late hellenistic reform. I looked at the whole reform section, but just there, so if it's somewhere else then I just missed it. If it's supposed to be in there... it's missing.
    In the absence of any new units, it would have been pretty redundant, beyond an announcement, so I left it out.

    The second Hellenistic reform is in the summer release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    - Pergamon is not included in the Thureos reform. An oversight or a design choice?
    They weren't included in the announcement about the reform; that was an oversight. But they, and everyone else still receive the impact of the change, since the important part is the event_counter which operates independently of the historic_event notice. The Hellenistic roster is used by many more factions than just those covered by the announcement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpelicity View Post
    - The forgiveness event for both independance "reforms" seem unnecessarily harsh. As it is, it only fires when you're 1 settlement short (same battle counter though). I imagine it's to make forgiveness come later, I can see that being logical, but the way it's written right now it can also never happen (it is conceivable to get 3 settlements before 6 victories...). I would suggest to make it so it triggers when you're 1 settlement short, OR 1 battle short, OR both (but seperately). Both means it can happen twice, but that's not a huge deal I think. Point is, it still triggers late, but it always triggers.
    I'll see what the art of the possible is with our code-meisters. It's already pretty complicated as it is.

    By the way, the two independence scripts are almost identical, barring the change in faction. Hayastan's will be more tailored to their circumstances in the summer release.

  10. #230

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Ah I see.

    Well yes I saw that the scripts were identical. My proposition only makes it more complicated if you keep both requirements but split them. Removing the battles requirement being on top of the settlements requirement makes it simpler, actually.

  11. #231

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    The Areuakoi have an armour upgrade it says on their unit card, is there any script i can test?

  12. #232

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Mantaprey View Post
    The Areuakoi have an armour upgrade it says on their unit card, is there any script i can test?
    Not really; it's tied to the ThureosReform or ThorakitaiReform - when they happen, the change will switch in automatically. As a non-Hellenistic faction, you won't get an announcement, but it will still trigger.

  13. #233

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    We can clarify the KH reform requirements. Quintus and others have done an excellent job of debugging it, and it works (almost) perfectly now. My comments/corrections in blue:

    This script is hard to read, bear with me. The first step is building the Congress. You will be able to do so once you have at least 3 settlements with the "polis_three" building (whatever that building is). At that point the building is available, you need it built to progress with the reform. Polis_three is a hellentistic metropolis. KH starts with one metropolis in Athens. KH has to capture Korinthos for its second metropolis (Korinthos is necessary for future reforms). For the third metropolis KH has an option of capturing Syracuse or Pergamon, or KH can wait a very long time to upgrade Rhodes or Sparta to a metropolis. Finally, with three metropolises, the Congress (kh3) will appear in the building roster. You build the congress in one city only.

    The next step of the reform is once again tied to buildings. You need the building "kh4" in at least 4 settlements. This is presumably a government-ish building. The congress is designated as "kh3". Once you have those buildings, an event will trigger, and you can move on to the next step. Kh4 is the koinon admin government. Like kh2 (autonomous polis) it allows you to recruit epilektoi hoplitai, but allows you to go further in the building tech tree.

    Now, to understand the next step, I need to explain state leaders. Understand this : the Koinon Hellenon is, as I understand it, a loose alliance of otherwise "independant" city states. You play all of them as the one faction, but in reality each city is independant. EBII provides a script that will make of your FMs the state leaders of this or that city you own. The FM needs to be of the right culture, and you can't get state leaders for every settlement in the game, just the typically greek (hellenistic) ones. The settlements you can get a leader for are : Ambrakia, Thermon, Pella, Demetrias, Korinthos, Chalkis, Mytilene, Salamis, Athenai, Sparte, Rhodos and Kydonia. Plenty of settlements to choose from. The state leader trait will say "Archon .....," like Archon Spartiates, or Archon Athenai. This trait does not come automatically. FMs usually acquire the trait by winning battles. Because you need leaders of four different states, polis-origin becomes an important trait to consider when selecting new FMs.

    Now that we understand state leaders, you need to gather at least 4 state leaders in Korinthos (which technically means you also need to own it first). I'm not sure if it's possible to get 2 FMs leaders of the same state, but the script specifies that it needs to be the leaders of 4 different states. You need to keep those leaders together in Korinthos for a full year (or 4 years..?) to trigger the actual reform event (no, no reform had happened yet.). If you start a single turn with less than 4 different faction leaders in Korinthos, the timer resets (in theory they can move out then back in within the turn though). The four Archons must remain in Korinthos for 4 turns.

    Note that a note from the EBteam seems to indicate that the scripting from this point on is not done, or not functional. Not sure what's with this, but I'll at least read and translate what's there. This either works, or will work, or... will be changed in the future. Not sure.
    The next step seems to be the Sympoliteia revolt. This is once more tied to buildings, which I don't have the actual name of. There is a counter that starts by default at 2, and will increase by 1 for each "kh7" building you have. That counter is also decreased by one every time you start building "kh2". If that counter is 2 or more, the revolt happens. I'm not entirely certain the revolt is a good thing to go through or not (I wouldn't think so, but it seems to progress the KH...). Basically, if you want to avoid the rebellion, once the reform happens (the leaders gathering, etc), you need to build 1 "kh2", plus 1 for every "kh7" you have. Since I don't know what those buildings are, I don't know how feasible that is. Note that queueing counts for "kh2".
    If the revolt does happen, it will end on its own after 16 turns or so. No idea what the effects are, but feel free to test it out (and tell me ).

    Parallel to all those events, the Thureos reform will fire once you reach turn 60, which should be 257BC. This should unlock additionnal units. There should be an additionnal late reform, but I haven't found the script for it.

    At the end of the four turns in Korinthos, the sympoliteia revolt begins. A new building appears in the building roster, kh7, or the sympoliteia founding state government. You can build this government in two cities only. You must begin construction of kh7 in two settlements on the SAME TURN. In the cities where kh7 is building you get a small happiness penalty (that is the revolt). After 16 turns the revolt ends, and you can build kh8 governments (member states) in all of your cities with >75% hellenic culture. With kh7 and kh8 governments KH can finally construct all of the possible buildings in the building tech tree.

  14. #234

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    The ThorakitaiReform is now in 2.03 as a time-counter only; it's there for the armour upgrade of certain units, but since we have no new units before the summer release, it doesn't unlock anything. I could have copied the lines that start to lock or taper off units, but I'm not sure that would have added anything. Then you'd be losing units, without getting their replacements.

  15. #235

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Updated the OP with this info, thanks Thuycidides. Just a question though, you can build the simpoliteia revolt in any 2 settlements, or 2 specific settlements? If it's specific settlements, which ones?

  16. #236

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    It has to be a settlement that already has the kh3 (congress) or kh4 (koinon admin) government. After all the reforms are complete, when you capture a new settlement, kh4 always has to be built before kh8 (member state government).

  17. #237

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    I had an issue, commented too in the 2.03 thread. I got the option to build congress despite not having 3 metropolis. I have 2 plus 6 poleis. If I start to build it it doesnt progress. I thought it was due to the archons but it seems that comes later somaybe its due to the fact it shouldnt be appearing in the first place.

  18. #238

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    I had an issue, commented too in the 2.03 thread. I got the option to build congress despite not having 3 metropolis. I have 2 plus 6 poleis. If I start to build it it doesnt progress. I thought it was due to the archons but it seems that comes later somaybe its due to the fact it shouldnt be appearing in the first place.
    Are you using the later updated script from the colony hotfix thread? If not, then the KH reform is broken and won't work in any case.

    Otherwise, I'd wait til 2.03b - just a few more thing to check and it's done.

  19. #239

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Yep I used that from the start as I was a while without playing so I installed everything and didnt played 2.03a without that

  20. #240

    Default Re: Reform requirements

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Yep I used that from the start as I was a while without playing so I installed everything and didnt played 2.03a without that
    The one from much later in the thread? The one in V.T. Marvin's original post doesn't have working KH reforms in it.

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