[Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

[Simpelicity]

Well I've never had much to contribute to this project this whole time it's been developping. I try

[Dirty Chai]

Apologies for the thread necromancy.

My querie has to do with the Nabatean reforms.
How exactly are you supposed to construct "walls of a higher rank than 'wooden palisade'" in Rekem (Petra)?
In general, can you even construct walls in Camps? It doesn't seem like you can.

I did think of trying to destroy the "society" buildings to try and convert it to a settlement, but this doesn't seem possible as they are indestructible.
Likewise, I then considered that perhaps the "society" buildings are the "walls" (which seems to be the case), but both only seem to equate to "wooden palisade" and that there is no higher rank.

Do Camps at some point convert to settlements? How do you do this? Is there a point where camps allow you to build walls? When/how?

So, essentially, what I'm getting here is that the Nabatean reforms are currently impossible;
Am I correct?

Less importantly, are there actually any post-Reform units for the Nabatians in the mod yet?
If so, what are they like? If not, are there plans for any?
(The basic unit list for the Nabateans is pretty "light")

- BF

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Apologies for the thread necromancy.

My querie has to do with the Nabatean reforms.
How exactly are you supposed to construct "walls of a higher rank than 'wooden palisade'" in Rekem (Petra)?
In general, can you even construct walls in Camps? It doesn't seem like you can.

I did think of trying to destroy the "society" buildings to try and convert it to a settlement, but this doesn't seem possible as they are indestructible.
Likewise, I then considered that perhaps the "society" buildings are the "walls" (which seems to be the case), but both only seem to equate to "wooden palisade" and that there is no higher rank.

Do Camps at some point convert to settlements? How do you do this? Is there a point where camps allow you to build walls? When/how?

So, essentially, what I'm getting here is that the Nabatean reforms are currently impossible;
Am I correct?

Less importantly, are there actually any post-Reform units for the Nabatians in the mod yet?
If so, what are they like? If not, are there plans for any?
(The basic unit list for the Nabateans is pretty "light")

- BF

This might help:

;;  Nabatu Reforms
    ;;
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    set_event_counter ecNabatu_Settled 0
    set_event_counter ecNabatu_Imperial 0
    declare_counter nabatu_tribal_allies
    declare_counter petra_settled
    declare_counter nabatu_settled_period
    declare_counter nabatu_hel_poleis
    declare_counter nabatu_trade_centers
    ;
    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu
        if     I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 0
            set_counter nabatu_tribal_allies 0
        end_if
        
        if     I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 1
            and    I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Imperial = 0
            inc_counter nabatu_settled_period 1
            set_counter nabatu_hel_poleis 0
            set_counter nabatu_trade_centers 0
        end_if
        
    end_monitor
    ;
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName sett_189    ;;;    Rekem - Nabatu starting capital has to convert to city
        and I_SettlementOwner sett_189 f_nabatu
        and SettlementBuildingExists > wooden_pallisade
        inc_counter petra_settled 1
        terminate_monitor
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu    ;;;    Count the extent of Nabatean tribal confederacy
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Imperial = 0
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 0
        and SettlementBuildingExists > wooden_pallisade
        and SettlementBuildingExists = nabatu_confed
        inc_counter nabatu_tribal_allies 1
    end_monitor
    ;
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu    ;;;    Count Hellenistic poleis administered by Nabatu
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 1
        and SettlementBuildingExists >= polis_one
        and SettlementBuildingExists = nabatu_admin
        inc_counter nabatu_hel_poleis 1
    end_monitor
    ;
    monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu    ;;;    Count large cities with fully developed markets controlled by Nabatu
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 1
        and SettlementBuildingExists >= market_four
        inc_counter nabatu_trade_centers 1
    end_monitor
    ;
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 0
        and I_CompareCounter petra_settled = 1
        and I_CompareCounter nabatu_tribal_allies > 2
        and I_NumberOfSettlements f_nabatu > 4
        set_event_counter ecNabatu_Settled 1
        set_religion f_nabatu rel_d
        historic_event HE_NABATU_SETTLED factions { f_nabatu, }
        terminate_monitor
    end_monitor
    ;
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType f_nabatu
        and I_EventCounter ecNabatu_Settled = 1
        and I_CompareCounter nabatu_settled_period > 40
        and I_CompareCounter nabatu_hel_poleis > 2
        and I_CompareCounter nabatu_trade_centers > 2
        and I_NumberOfSettlements f_nabatu > 9
        set_event_counter ecNabatu_Settled 0
        set_event_counter ecNabatu_Imperial 1
        set_religion f_nabatu rel_c
        historic_event HE_NABATU_IMPERIAL factions { f_nabatu, }
        terminate_monitor
    end_monitor
    ; 

[Dirty Chai]

Thank you, b0Gia.

So, I guess my next question is, how do you convert a Camp to a City?

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Thank you, b0Gia.

So, I guess my next question is, how do you convert a Camp to a City?

Taxation rates are not controllable in "camps". We used M2TW castles for this settlement class, and they don't allow manual change to taxation rates. Conversion to "city-style" settlements is eventually possible, so live with it until then

[Dirty Chai]

Taxation rates are not controllable in "camps". We used M2TW castles for this settlement class, and they don't allow manual change to taxation rates. Conversion to "city-style" settlements is eventually possible, so live with it until then

To clarify, you're saying that to convert a camp (castle) to a city/town-style settlement is not yet possible in the mod?
Or are you saying that it just happens over time in-game?

If not, I do have a suggestion: M2TW vanilla allows you to simply convert the castles to towns by building a "Convert to _" building.
I believe if the settlement was a advanced enough, though, you couldn't (like a fortress or large city), and you had to destroy the walls or castle down to a lower rank to convert it.

[V.T. Marvin]

To clarify the camp-to-city conversion process:

In convertible camp type settlements one can build either HERDS or FARMS (or a combination of these two buildings, but that is not advisable if one aims at converting the region eventually because at higher levels these buildings become mutually exclusive). HERDS are typically nomadic building and best used in regions that are supposed to remain nomadic throughout the game. On the other hand the FARMS in nomadic regions slowly increase the "Eastern Tribal" culture in the region, thereby reducing the "Nomadic" one and allowing higher level of these FARMS to be built.

Once the settled culture level raises far enough and the highest level of farms is built (it may require to destroy the competing HERDS building) one can then build the usual M2TW camp-to-city conversion building.

[Simpelicity]

I doubt this necromancy is a problem, this thread was made to answer those questions

Updated OP with that info, but it would be great to have a few more details on how to make a city out of a settlement. Never done it myself.

[Dirty Chai]

Thank you!

[Hummer]

Regarding the Pontic reforms.
Are you sure about the Pontic administration government types increasing EI culture?

The pontic administration starts default in the pontic capital. The ETS goes down and EI goes up but I assumed this was due to the fact there is a indigenous military settlement in the capital also. I have played for 120 turns now. The ETS is at 43%, EI is also at 43% and going up as other cultures go down.

In Ani-Kamah, I built a governor general and a military outpost. This settlement is acting the same as the capital. EI is going up and ETS is going down. But again, there is a military outpost. My other cities with a pontic government are not increasing in EI culture. They also don't have a military outpost.

I would argue that the three pontic government types (pontic administration, governor general and sacred estates) does nothing for culture conversion. I would also argue that the military outpost increases EI and the only way to increase EI before reaching the pontic reform is to build the indigenous military outposts.

Has anyone done a really close study of this?
It would be great if someone could check this over. I have not tested this thoroughly.

Cheers

[Ingvarr1]

Pontic government does increase EI (as does the native military colonies), but all those increases are capped. By reading the script one can see that:

Sacred Estates increase EI until 50%
Pontic Adm. (35)
Governor-General (35)
Satrapy (50)
Petty Kingdom (55)
Dynastic Adm. (60)
Other types of pontic governments don't increase culture.

[Dago Red]

I can confirm the Pontic reforms work as explained in this thread. Having all the necessary cities, save one, and assuming I'd met the other requirements in battles long ago, I waited to see what would happen after my end turn on capturing the last city listed here: Chersonesos. And voila!

[Do not open if you wish the Pontic reform message to remain unknown to you]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pontic government does increase EI (as does the native military colonies), but all those increases are capped. By reading the script one can see that:

Sacred Estates increase EI until 50%
Pontic Adm. (35)
Governor-General (35)
Satrapy (50)
Petty Kingdom (55)
Dynastic Adm. (60)
Other types of pontic governments don't increase culture.

Great list. ON a related note, I'm confused about how to build the top tier Pontic Basileus building (Dynastic Administration). I have access to Satrap government buildings now (after those reforms triggered) in two locations, including my capital. Obviously I'm not going to make my capital province a satrapy so I looked for what requirement remained for the final government building option to appear -- the only requirement listed in game is 35% Eastern Imperial culture -- which I have!

So there must be another requirement not shown. Is there a population or city wall size requirement ?

[prosperin]

Is there no script available for the Getai? Their win condition mentions something to that effect I presume from owning all the mountain/native region and building a massive temple to their god of gods at Samzghrfbhgdfhgdbhfgdfjg.

Was the person that was working on them just not finished with the faction?

[Simpelicity]

If doing so does reform them, the script for it isn't with the scripting for other reforms.

[prosperin]

It's probably never finished then, the faction is missing a lot of changes. It seems like most of the eastern and factions of africa got their reforms but the Celtic barbarians dont have any love. ;;

[Simpelicity]

The only celts that got their reforms in time are the pritanoi.

Celts aren't the only unfinished business, far from it. The 4 successor kingdoms (Epirus, Makedon, Seleukia and Ptolemies) don't have any reforms either. Other factions as well.

[prosperin]

The only celts that got their reforms in time are the pritanoi.

Celts aren't the only unfinished business, far from it. The 4 successor kingdoms (Epirus, Makedon, Seleukia and Ptolemies) don't have any reforms either. Other factions as well.

I would presume the celts to all share similar developements, but yeah I guess it makes sense. The iberians wouldn't be able to share the advanced units of the Gaulish friends.

I typically shy away from the big established kingdoms, so I will ask forgiveness on my ignorance there.

[Simpelicity]

Haha, I only played Hayasdan and Boii for significant amounts.

I know who doesn't have a reform because I made a list of those who do

btw celts and successor kingdoms aren't the only unfinished business, everyone's favorite married couple isn't finished either (Rome and Carthage). Bosporos has nothing either, and I'm not sure the lugiones have something or not, it's a little vague.

Note that a lot of the missing reforms are missing because even if they were in it'd make 0 difference because the units they unlock aren't made.

[prosperin]

Mhmm, looking at how far along some of the factions are its clear that a lot of the developement seemed to be pet projects. The brits, which are the celts that are most far along has a different style of text for their government, and advances of it. Though, Im not sure if they had a variety of tribes yet for their government. It's rather interesting the units they have completed. They have slingers, skirmishers, and then slinger-spearmen along with the tribal spearmen and then their upgraded units.

I had thought of over the past few days ways humerous ways to model the units still in developement for factions which have the mechanics to use them. The hoplites with the green pointy hats are the reformed hoplites! That way the battles aren't getting in the way of campaign development.

[Simpelicity]

That's... actually an interesting proposition. What takes the most time to produce is units and more specifically half a dozen accurate skins for them. They could create generic units with just enough distinctiveness to differentiate them from other similar units, as placeholders really until their real units are done, and so start by focusing down the gameplay elements of the mod. And then, as people play the mod, they update it every now and then, with units, descriptions, etc, updating the history side of things.