[Official] Reform requirements - as at 2.3

[2Saz]

After the pain and suffering involved in getting the convoluted KH reform to work as it was supposed to at all, trust me when I say I'm not going to touch it ever again.

Haha ! Fair enough. As far as I'm concerned, I like it, even with this little bug. It gives more personality to the campaign. However, I don't really know which are the implications in game, except new buildings with different stats. Is there a link with incoming new units ?

[2Saz]

The first three are starting traits for the relevant FMs, the last one is acquired so it seems to me that it's working well.
All the Archon traits are tied to an ethnicity (with the exception of the nesioton one), so you'll need the right FM to gain the new archonships.

I understand that but with the death of the starting FMs, I'm curious to know how I got the traits for the next ones. Do we need to perform specific actions or is it something like hereditary (i.e. it goes directly to the next FM with the appropriate ethnicity and the most influence for example) ? Besides, in the OP, it says that there are other titles for "typically greek" ethnicities and I'm wondering which are they and how you get them. Currently I have FMs form Krete and the region of Korinth for example but no title yet for them.

[2Saz]

Otherwise, it says in the OP that the Congress should be build in Korinth but the building option is actually present in every settlements (I own). Is there a reason to build it in Korinth, except maybe historical reasons?

[QuintusSertorius]

Haha ! Fair enough. As far as I'm concerned, I like it, even with this little bug. It gives more personality to the campaign. However, I don't really know which are the implications in game, except new buildings with different stats. Is there a link with incoming new units ?

The KH reforms have no impact whatsoever on units; they come through the Hellenistic Military Reforms which are the same for all nine Hellenistic factions. What they do change are your government buildings and thus infrastructure options.

Otherwise, it says in the OP that the Congress should be build in Korinth but the building option is actually present in every settlements (I own). Is there a reason to build it in Korinth, except maybe historical reasons?

You can build the Congress wherever you like. But the next stage, with the Archons, requires Korinthos (because that's where they have to go).

[gosam]

I understand that but with the death of the starting FMs, I'm curious to know how I got the traits for the next ones. Do we need to perform specific actions or is it something like hereditary (i.e. it goes directly to the next FM with the appropriate ethnicity and the most influence for example) ? Besides, in the OP, it says that there are other titles for "typically greek" ethnicities and I'm wondering which are they and how you get them. Currently I have FMs form Krete and the region of Korinth for example but no title yet for them.

You need to have an FM with at least one influence point, and to have a government built in the "home" city for his ethnicity. The government has to be any one that comes after the military conquest one.

Once you have an eligible FM, you need to select him while outside a settlement. This part is weird because no other trait works like that, but it's because of an engine limitation. We are trying to get it changed, might or might not have it ready for next release.

[2Saz]

You need to have an FM with at least one influence point, and to have a government built in the "home" city for his ethnicity. The government has to be any one that comes after the military conquest one.

Once you have an eligible FM, you need to select him while outside a settlement. This part is weird because no other trait works like that, but it's because of an engine limitation. We are trying to get it changed, might or might not have it ready for next release.

I'm not sure I even did it on purpose but I now got the titles for Krete and Korinth, which brings me to 5 different Archons. Everything works fine.

[madmatg]

Taksashila

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Taksashila starts out being part of the Mauryan empire. Starting from turn 15, you will randomly be asked to recognize mauryan rule (70% chance of it happening past turn 14). If you accept, you will be paying a 3000 tribute in winter, and will receive mauryan military help against invasions. There is a 40% chance per turn that help will arrive while you are at war. Looks like help will only come once per war, but I might be wrong on that.

If you refused to recognize Mauryan rule, you enter rebellion. Each turn you have 60% chance of a moderate mauryan army invading, and a 40% chance of a big mauryan army invading. Both armies are calculated seperately, so they could in theory both happen together, or neither could come. Only 1 moderate and 1 large army can be spawned at one time. The mauryans will stop sending armies past turn 170.

If the rebelling Taksashila controls at least 7 settlements and has defeated at least 4 mauryan armies, they will have earned their independance, and will be considered an empire.

EDIT tried and true. Thanks Mantaprey!

Tips
Something I realized from Mantaprey's experience : the script is heavily tied to the family members that spawn with the mauryan armies. Killing them counts as defeating their army, even if you used an assassin instead of an army. Also, assassinating the FM basically turns the mauryan army into a normal eleutheroi army, as opposed to one that will aggressively siege certain settlements of yours.

I am on turn 80, and stopped paying tribute around turn 40. The Mauryans sent about 4 armies total to attack me but have stopped after the 4th army. So when it says it will stop by turn 150 do you mean they will only send 4 armies or you must defeat at least 4 during all the ones they send from 140 on?

[myarta]

They actually only send three. The correct reform requirements for the latest version are having 7 or more settlements and defeating the THREE armies. Once you've decided to rebel, the first army has a 50% chance of showing up each turn starting at turn 21. So it's very likely to be around turn 21-23. The second army is also a 50% shot starting turn 36, so very likely to show up 36-38. The third and final army shows up at 50% chance starting turn 51, so likely to show up 51-53. However, just to make the time more variable, there are low probability rolls involved besides just beating the armies. You can expect it to take about 10 to 20 turns after you defeated the third and final army before the reform is complete. Also note that actually the armies just have to be defeated. Theoretically someone could beat them for you, but that's unlikely since Baktria is far enough away that they won't be coming up to fight rebels right by your capital.

[madmatg]

Ok I got it, thanks! I have defeated them and so now I'll start expanding more, I was leaving my armies back in case they came with more (which I guess I'll continue to do for story sake)

[myarta]

Ok I got it, thanks! I have defeated them and so now I'll start expanding more, I was leaving my armies back in case they came with more (which I guess I'll continue to do for story sake)

Sounds good. You'll get the event soon enough which says something like the Mauryan king acknowledges your independence, and then you can start building better governments. I probably wouldn't waste time building allied govt buildings if you've expanded somewhere you can't build a native, since your native government range increases a lot after independence, and it should come within 10-20 turns of beating army #3.

[lopovjack]

Hi all,

first post on the forums - I've played EB II years ago, and just remembered how many hours I sunk into it back then, so decided to try it out. I started with Baktria - out of some reason my favorite faction since forever. Anyways, I scoured the forums a bit about their reform requirements, but I still don't get it (bear with me, I know it was explained a couple of times). I took my time with rebelling, and by the time the war with AS started, Pahlava was already huffing down their neck. All in all, fast forward a couple turns forward, I manage to defeat countless AS armies, but only conquer one city (Pahlava always beat me to it, and one rebelled just as I was to attack it). AS got annihilated in the meantime and I can't find any more of their cities anywhere (they're still not a destroyed faction). My question is: What to do know? Do the reforms trigger on their own? If AS is destroyed by somebody else, will they trigger? If not, how do I find their remaining cities/armies?

Oh, also, I'm playing 2.07a!

[myarta]

Hi all,

first post on the forums - I've played EB II years ago, and just remembered how many hours I sunk into it back then, so decided to try it out. I started with Baktria - out of some reason my favorite faction since forever. Anyways, I scoured the forums a bit about their reform requirements, but I still don't get it (bear with me, I know it was explained a couple of times). I took my time with rebelling, and by the time the war with AS started, Pahlava was already huffing down their neck. All in all, fast forward a couple turns forward, I manage to defeat countless AS armies, but only conquer one city (Pahlava always beat me to it, and one rebelled just as I was to attack it). AS got annihilated in the meantime and I can't find any more of their cities anywhere (they're still not a destroyed faction). My question is: What to do know? Do the reforms trigger on their own? If AS is destroyed by somebody else, will they trigger? If not, how do I find their remaining cities/armies?

Oh, also, I'm playing 2.07a!

You have to take cities from them, so if you waited too long and their cities rebelled or became Pahlavan, you do have a bit of a problem. I suppose the team could see about writing a fallback condition where AS being eliminated automatically completes the independence script.

What you can do at this point is use the Force Diplomacy feature to salvage your save game and still get your independence. Turn off the fog of war and look for the AS cities/units. Then send your diplomat there immediately with 'move_character' or using 'character_reset' a bunch. Then...give them that city you took from the rebels via diplomacy (you may have to force peace first) and activate force diplomacy using the Advisor (?) button while in the negotiation. Then siege that city back from them. Repeat if you have to to get your count up to 3.

That's pretty cheesy, but it's not your fault that you can't find AS cities to fight, and if they're basically broken as a power, just by someone else, it should be true that you are independent of them and thus eligible for your independence event.

I noticed that the more passive AI in, what was it 2.05?, made it easier to achieve your AS independence events. In the more aggressive AI from 2.03+ that we brought back in 2.06 (or 2.07, I'm forgetting which sub version was the calmer AI test), the AS tends to crumble (as they did historically) and you have to make prepping for your independence war your first goal, otherwise you'll just be at war with Parthia for the same territory, but it won't count towards unlocking your factional government buildings like a completed independence event will.

[Draewn]

In that case, maybe the scripts need an 'alternate route' for becoming independent simply through the decline of your overlord in the region? You may not have demonstrably done the self-strengthening implied in taking the battle to them, but if they aren't in a position to be exercising power in the region the net effect is probably the same, no?

[lopovjack]

Thanks for the explanation and the cheese-route. I think I'm just going to restart with the new patch and see how it goes.

Yeah, I did a hundred turns twice with Baktria and this was the end-result both times. I wasn't too aggressive and paid the tribute until I conquered Saka to the north and the rebel provinces to the east - by the time I declared independence, Parthia was already decimating the Seleucids. It makes for an interesting mission, sending your faction leader with a pumped up Baktrian army across the newly conquered Parthia to try and attack the remaining AS provinces, but the notion of independence (and AS's threats) become somewhat moot. On the other hand, if there was an added reform condition based on the state of AS, it means you can just wait it out and reform after AS gets chased out of the region.

[QuintusSertorius]

At the very least, a fallback "AS is dead, everyone is independent" trigger is in order. Thanks for raising this.

EDIT: This is in 2.1b by the way, Hayastan, Baktria and Pergamon have a fallback whereby if the Seleukids fall below 5 provinces, their independence/kingship is automatically triggered.

[The excited one]

now that EB had released its 2.1 version the OP should start to update the reform triggers. or someone else take up the slack

[bordinis]

I have no idea what to do to get Lougiones reforms. Does anyone know?

[romanius24]

Did they change the reforms?
For lougiones they just happen on certain turns or years. (QS might know)

[Genghis Skahn]

It happens at random between turn 100 something and the high 100s or low 200s. Just wait and they should trigger for both germanic factions , mine triggered fairly late too--I asked the same question a while ago

[Dirty Chai]

Is this still the settled reform requirements for the Saka?

The saka will settle if they have their walls a rank above wooden palissade in at least 3 of these settlements : Oyrta, Sulek, Chach, Bukharakh, Khiva or Nisaya. The faction leader must also gain the settled trait, however that works.

So it has to be Oyrta, Sulek, Chach, Bukharakh, Khiva or Nisaya?
So, for example, if I migrate the Saka Rauka to Egypt at the start of the game, I will essentially never get reforms?