Far right Northern League leader:I admire North Korea!

[Papay]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...orthern-league

He had a trip there and he was impressed for what he saw. Really? I thought that the new North Korean leader executed civilians for fun. Propaganda?

[Mayer]

He liked that North Korea's streets are clean, old people were respected and that there is a great sense of community.
I see nothing wrong with that, it is just that DPRK has a lot of stupidity too.

we really shouldn't blind ourselves to think that it is the worst place in the world (though it was quite bad under economic collapse in the 90s),
the reality is that human rights abuses are much worse in the middle east and several western nations have capital punishment

[rollinnse]

Mayer are you sure that there are places MUCH worse than N Korea, anywhere? Based on the cult of personality that is forced on people and the indoctrination and isolation that they experience, it could be argued that the people of N Korea are born and then they die, without ever living a life. And I don't see the relevance in Western countries using capital punishment on convicted murderers.

[AqD]

It is the worst because it would have been like South Korea if not for Kim, while other countries have much bigger and deeper issues.

[Caelifer_1991]

It is the worst because it would have been like South Korea if not for Kim, while other countries have much bigger and deeper issues.

North Korea would not have been like South Korea if not for the Kim's. Historically, Korea has always been in a hard position, nestled between China and Japan. The economic expansion of South Korea from its incredibly low base in the 60s was due to the destruction of one of its rivals: Japan, and the defence against the other: China, by the U.S. North Korea had no such luxury, its tempting to say "oh if only they opted for a free market then they'd be just like South Korea", but unlike South Korea, North Korea is, well, in the North, and thus borders China. If North Korea did anything but to espouse the Communism of what would otherwise be their greatest threat to their independence: China, then China would see that as an encroachment into their sphere of influence just as much as the actual invasion of the territory by the U.S. in the 50s, and their response would be little different. As such, historically speaking, it was always inevitable that with the support of the U.S., within the defence framework of NATO, without the pressing defence concerns of the North, with the subsidisation of what security concerns South Korea has by the U.S., and so on, that South Korea would sore past the North, regardless of the competence of the leaders involved. Likewise, it was always inevitable that North Korea would adopt a centralised, militarist system with a hefty emphasis upon defence and common order in order to safeguard its independence, and that this, alongside the inherent insecurity of any investments that could be made there, would suppress its economic growth substantially. The whole situation was essentially predetermined by geography.

Indeed as far as I'm concerned, essentially all of human history is predetermined by geography, and I think North Korea makes a great example of that. People may like to point to their decisions and those of their forefathers as the reason for their history, but in reality no one ever makes a decision in isolation from the circumstances that spur that decision to be made in the first place, necessity breeds innovation as they say, but what they leave out is that it breeds all other decisions as well. People may point to culture, but culture is nothing if not the accumulation of beliefs and reactions to circumstance, itself born of necessity just the same. People may point to individuals, and the power that each individual has over his or her own fate, whilst forgetting that societies are made up of millions of individuals, and that for every decision that one person makes another has made the opposite, and that the success or failure of such decisions is as a result of the opportunities present, themselves born from circumstance as well. In summary, had the Kim family alongside the North Korean population magically switched places with those of the South, or rather, had their direct ancestors done so (to account for the circumstances directly leading up to the Korean war), then history would be no different, all that would change are the names.

[athanaric]

Indeed as far as I'm concerned, essentially all of human history is predetermined by geography, [...]

That is an awfully simplistic view.

If the communists and, to some degree, the Americans, had acted differently (and if somebody had eliminated the Kims, which unfortunately didn't happen), Korea as a whole might've had a chance as a kind of "neutral", unaligned state similar to Sweden or Austria. As can be seen in South Korea, Korean culture does lend itself to a kind of economy that allows for high living standards.

[Caelifer_1991]

That is an awfully simplistic view.

If the communists and, to some degree, the Americans, had acted differently (and if somebody had eliminated the Kims, which unfortunately didn't happen), Korea as a whole might've had a chance as a kind of "neutral", unaligned state similar to Sweden or Austria. As can be seen in South Korea, Korean culture does lend itself to a kind of economy that allows for high living standards.

It seems an awfully simplistic view because it is deliberately simplified for the sake of writing a post stretching over two paragraphs, rather than several pages or, if inclusive of historical examples and analysis, probably a book or two. Had someone eliminated the Kims, one of two things would probably have happened, one: the Kims would have been rather rapidly replaced by someone else who would act just the same, or two: the state would have fallen into anarchy and China would have intervened to force the process. China would not allow a "neutral" state along its border knowing fully well that in the climate of the Cold War, that "neutral" was simply one step away from being your sworn enemy and that those across the aisle, so to speak, would do everything in their power to bring them over to their side. This is particularly relevant to Korea, sharing a common language and culture with the South, the impetus to reunify would have been immense without a concerted effort to prevent it and the maintenance of the stark Communist/ Capitalist divide. Since the South was already Capitalist and under the sway of the U.S., unification in the absence of Chinese influence would be tantamount to a wholesale conversion of North Korea to the enemy. It was all or nothing for both sides involved, and thus, paradoxically, a divided Korea with vastly different economic systems was inevitable.

As for Korean culture, I don't see your point. There are no cultures on Earth that do not lend themselves to the kind of economy that allows for high living standards in the absence of necessity, either perceived or actual, that would demand something else.

[Condottiere 40K]

Maybe the trains ran on time.

The go ahead for the Korean war was Stalin's; had the Americans been more accommodating, the CCP might be willing to keep Korea neutral.