*SUBMOD RELEASED* Spartiatai Hoplitai ( Spartan Hoplites ) for the Hellenic Alliance. ( Campaign and Battles ) Updated V1.0

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

I will update the mod soon for the new EB version.


@ipwnu678

I've made the unid cards with GIMP; You can use whatever you like in your mod; EDB is responsible for limiting the unit recruitment to Sparta only; Idk what your last sentence means but if it is due to incompatibility it shall be fixed in the future.

[ipwnu678]

ahh it isnt made for 2.01, that must explain it.
i didnt mean the program you use - i use that too. do you take a screenshot of the unit in game or in your model program - or did you use a unit card that was already in game?

edit: i just had an idea for the exclusive units for settlements. is it possible to have the units recruited from the regional infomation buildings?
edit 2: turns out i can add it. Sparta's regional information is province_090
also, it seems there is a problem with putting the information for the unit from your building descr into mine, the game crashes on start up and apparently its because it cant find "EBII/preferences/player"
i didnt have this error before i edited the export_buildings_descr file, and didnt show up when i had the unit in custom battles working.

edit 3: seems to have been a mistake i made, i didnt lay the file out properly - didnt realise until i used notepad++ everything works now

I don't suppose you could make some athenian hoplites?

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

*UPDATED*

All units reworked, stats, gloss maps and now there are 3 versions.

random things changed

Have FUN!

[sgz]

*UPDATED*

All units reworked, stats, gloss maps and now there are 3 versions.

random things changed

Have FUN!

where can we dowload from? The link at start of the threat is to a R2TW mod. !

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

where can we dowload from? The link at start of the threat is to a R2TW mod. !

I messed up with copy & paste

Its fixed

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

Do you think that you'll add any Athenian-type unit in future, perhaps Marines? I feel this will really add to the flavour of the Greek faction and show that they were seperate cities united. After all if Sparta is represented, so should Athens. .

They're on their way!

[Bingbangbong]

They look great! Can't wait for the Athenian hoplites too!

Out of curiosity, why are you only allowing the recruitment of 2 Spartan hoplites per game? I can understand not wanting people to just spam them, but 2 units is closer to a personal bodyguard than an army, and technically every Spartan who had passed the agoge could be called upon to fight. Would it not make more sense to allow more units as Sparta grows as a city e.g. 2 spartan hoplites for a large town 4 for minor city, etc, or preferably (although probably not possible) to reduce the population of Sparta by 'x' men for every unit recruited, meaning that spamming them excessively would prevent Sparta from developing as a city and impact on its income, particularly early in the game when population is low and when they could be used to most devastating effect.

Alternatively, Sparta could only be able to recruit Spartan hoplites, and not generic ones, which would help differentiate between city states. Once Athenian troops, etc were introduced it could add a nice new dimension to gameplay as kh in the early game and make it feel more like a group of allied city states, as opposed to a unified faction.

As a side note, from experience with rtw, the main factor that prevents these units being overused is the fact that they have to be retrained/recruited in Sparta. It's just not practical to march/sail your army from Sparta to the frontlines and back every battle you fight and even a stack of 20 Spartans will be degraded to the point of needing retraining after one or 2 pitched battles/sieges.

Seems strange if I have a population of maybe 10,000 adult Spartan males who've passed agoge that I can only recruit say 240 Spartan hoplites from them, even though technically they're all battle-ready warriors.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

They look great! Can't wait for the Athenian hoplites too!

Out of curiosity, why are you only allowing the recruitment of 2 Spartan hoplites per game? I can understand not wanting people to just spam them, but 2 units is closer to a personal bodyguard than an army, and technically every Spartan who had passed the agoge could be called upon to fight. Would it not make more sense to allow more units as Sparta grows as a city e.g. 2 spartan hoplites for a large town 4 for minor city, etc, or preferably (although probably not possible) to reduce the population of Sparta by 'x' men for every unit recruited, meaning that spamming them excessively would prevent Sparta from developing as a city and impact on its income, particularly early in the game when population is low and when they could be used to most devastating effect.

Alternatively, Sparta could only be able to recruit Spartan hoplites, and not generic ones, which would help differentiate between city states. Once Athenian troops, etc were introduced it could add a nice new dimension to gameplay as kh in the early game and make it feel more like a group of allied city states, as opposed to a unified faction.

As a side note, from experience with rtw, the main factor that prevents these units being overused is the fact that they have to be retrained/recruited in Sparta. It's just not practical to march/sail your army from Sparta to the frontlines and back every battle you fight and even a stack of 20 Spartans will be degraded to the point of needing retraining after one or 2 pitched battles/sieges.

Seems strange if I have a population of maybe 10,000 adult Spartan males who've passed agoge that I can only recruit say 240 Spartan hoplites from them, even though technically they're all battle-ready warriors.

Well the whole sparta in 272 bc counted only 700 spartans population. So 2 spartan hoplites i think is historical accurate. Maybe could one + 1 spartan hoplite/city upgrade. In 480 b.c. sparta could muster 8000 spartans, 371 bc before the defeat from thebans 1200, after the defeat only 800 spartans. So i think around 272 could muster only around 100 - 200 spartans homioi from a population of 700 spartans.

[Fabio_Scevola]

So spartans should be present for the spartan FM at the beginning of the game? That would make 2 units.
If the pure spartan population decline would continue, then no more units should be possible then?
I think other hoplite from Sparta are possible since it means the whole region not just the city,although I don't know if there are other cities in lakaemodia in the time frame...

[Bingbangbong]

Well the whole sparta in 272 bc counted only 700 spartans population. So 2 spartan hoplites i think is historical accurate. Maybe could one + 1 spartan hoplite/city upgrade. In 480 b.c. sparta could muster 8000 spartans, 371 bc before the defeat from thebans 1200, after the defeat only 800 spartans. So i think around 272 could muster only around 100 - 200 spartans homioi from a population of 700 spartans.

I think historically you've got it right as a starting point, as in this time period Sparta were on the decline and never returned to former glories - but the real issue I'm driving at is the question of our influence on the game.


Sparta's population will inevitably skyrocket into the tens of thousands just due to game mechanics (arguably this could be made up of 90% helots as opposed to homoioi though), we'll be forced to raise ahistorical walls around the city (damn game mechanics again) but most importantly of all the start of the game will represent a departure from history, as I definitely won't be succumbing to the might of Rome any time soon. sparta's decline is at an end in this 272BC and with their allies, they're about to bring the known world to heel.


I could see a load of ways in which this regrowth could be implemented effectively, but sadly have zero knowledge of coding/scripting and even less free time to do it/learn it. There could be an ancillary/trait where Spartans will only follow one of Sparta's kings outside lakedaemonia, without suffering severe buffs or the generals being fined/punished, or even a requirement for the gerousia to agree to any deployment of troops beyond say 300 hoplites accompanying a king as a 'bodyguard' as occurred at Thermopylae (all similar to the roman system of praetors, consuls, etc). Not only is this historically more accurate than letting them trot off across the globe at will and under anyone's leadership, but would add further constraints on the ways and locations where the army could be put to use effectively.


Alternatively having too light a deployment in Sparta could trigger a helot revolt, which would bring a risk/reward factor into utilising your army of Spartans, as when they left for combat, the serfs would potentially attempt to revolt. I quite like the idea of a battle of 200 Spartans + general battling it out against a mob of 4000 angry helots. Total war at it's best!


Aside from that I think increasing the number to be recruited as the city grows is possibly the most straightforward way of achieving this, although I've never been a fan of such arbitrary limits, especially when there are records of Spartans numbering in their thousands during times of strength and prosperity.


If recruitment/retraining could lead to population decline that would ultimately be my preferred way of limiting their numbers in a truly representative manner and would possibly be an interesting factor to introduce for all cities/soldiers to help combat troop spamming if it's scriptable.


A player could choose to use up their whole starting population of 700 to make seven hoplite units, but would then have to suffer the consequences as their city with a new population of 10 has to slowly rebuild itself a few percentage points/mnaii at a time. This would have the bonus of accurately representing the real reasons behind the growth and collapse of Sparta that you describe between 420-280, and bring in a new strategic aspect to recruitment aside from the tedious upkeep costs - with major cities being centres for recruitment and troop recruitment providing an effective way of reducing populations to address squalor issues in your largest cities.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

I think historically you've got it right as a starting point, as in this time period Sparta were on the decline and never returned to former glories - but the real issue I'm driving at is the question of our influence on the game.


Sparta's population will inevitably skyrocket into the tens of thousands just due to game mechanics (arguably this could be made up of 90% helots as opposed to homoioi though), we'll be forced to raise ahistorical walls around the city (damn game mechanics again) but most importantly of all the start of the game will represent a departure from history, as I definitely won't be succumbing to the might of Rome any time soon. sparta's decline is at an end in this 272BC and with their allies, they're about to bring the known world to heel.


I could see a load of ways in which this regrowth could be implemented effectively, but sadly have zero knowledge of coding/scripting and even less free time to do it/learn it. There could be an ancillary/trait where Spartans will only follow one of Sparta's kings outside lakedaemonia, without suffering severe buffs or the generals being fined/punished, or even a requirement for the gerousia to agree to any deployment of troops beyond say 300 hoplites accompanying a king as a 'bodyguard' as occurred at Thermopylae (all similar to the roman system of praetors, consuls, etc). Not only is this historically more accurate than letting them trot off across the globe at will and under anyone's leadership, but would add further constraints on the ways and locations where the army could be put to use effectively.


Alternatively having too light a deployment in Sparta could trigger a helot revolt, which would bring a risk/reward factor into utilising your army of Spartans, as when they left for combat, the serfs would potentially attempt to revolt. I quite like the idea of a battle of 200 Spartans + general battling it out against a mob of 4000 angry helots. Total war at it's best!


Aside from that I think increasing the number to be recruited as the city grows is possibly the most straightforward way of achieving this, although I've never been a fan of such arbitrary limits, especially when there are records of Spartans numbering in their thousands during times of strength and prosperity.


If recruitment/retraining could lead to population decline that would ultimately be my preferred way of limiting their numbers in a truly representative manner and would possibly be an interesting factor to introduce for all cities/soldiers to help combat troop spamming if it's scriptable.


A player could choose to use up their whole starting population of 700 to make seven hoplite units, but would then have to suffer the consequences as their city with a new population of 10 has to slowly rebuild itself a few percentage points/mnaii at a time. This would have the bonus of accurately representing the real reasons behind the growth and collapse of Sparta that you describe between 420-280, and bring in a new strategic aspect to recruitment aside from the tedious upkeep costs - with major cities being centres for recruitment and troop recruitment providing an effective way of reducing populations to address squalor issues in your largest cities.

Well agree hope implement some of your thoughts into a future Interactive Events Submod.

But back to history again one Spartan managed to changed the fate of Sparta: Cleomenes III

Cleomenes III was king of Sparta, son of Leonidas II who ascended the throne in 235 BC and he did great reforms. Reinstated the laws of Lycurgus, trained his army to the standards of the Macedonian phalanx, proposed land reform and liberalization of helots. So people reached 4,000 including 700 was. From 229 BC to 222 BC, Cleomenes waged war against the Achaean League under Aratus of Sicyon. Domestically, he is known for his attempt to reform the Spartan state. After being defeated by the Acheans in the Battle of Sellasia in 222 BC, he fled to Ptolemaic Egypt. After a failed revolt in 219 BC, he committed suicide.

His ideology was tha the suicide must be an action and not a avoidance of action.

Early years

On the death of his father, Cleomenes ascended the throne of Sparta in 235 BC. Cleomenes had been inspired by Agis and began reforms. Meanwhile, the Achaean League under the command of Aratus of Sicyon was trying to unite all of the Peloponnese. Upon hearing of Leonidas' death, Aratus began attacking the cities of Arcadia which bordered Achaea. Plutarch says that Aratus made these moves to see how Sparta stood inclined.

In 229 BC, the cities of Tegea, Mantinea, Caphyae and Orchomenus - who were allied with the Aetolian League - come over to Sparta. Historians Polybius and Sir William Smith claim that Cleomenes seized these cities by treachery; however the translator of Plutarch on Sparta, Richard Talbert, claims he did so at their own request. Later that year, the ephors sent Cleomenes to seize Athenaeum, a border fort on the Spartan border with Megalopolis which was being disputed by both cities; Cleomenes seized the fort and fortified it. Meanwhile, the Achaean League summoned a meeting of its assembly and declared war against Sparta. In retaliation for fortifying the fort, Aratus made a night attack on Tegea and Orchomenus but when his supporters on the inside failed to help, he retreated hoping to remain unnoticed.

Cleomenes discovered the attempted night attack, and sent a message to Aratus asking the purpose of the expedition. Aratus replied that he had come to stop Cleomenes fortifying Athenaeum. Cleomenes responded to this by saying: "if it's all the same to you, write and tell me why you brought along those torches and ladders."

Cleomenean War

Cleomenes advanced into Arcadia before being called back by the ephors. When Aratus captured Caphyae, the ephors sent him out again. He ravaged the territory of Argos with an army of 5,000 men before being confronted by the new strategos of the Achaean League, Aristomachos of Argos, and his army of consisting of 20,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry at Pallantium. Aratus, who accompanied Aristomachos as an adviser, advised him to retreat. Smith agrees with Aratus' assessment that 20,000 Achaeans were no match for 5,000 Spartans (not homoioi but warriors from Laconia.)

This success greatly encouraged Cleomenes and when he heard that Aratus was attacking Sparta's ally, Elis, he set off to confront them. The Spartan army fell upon the Achaean army near Mount Lycaeum and routed it. Aratus took advantage of a rumour saying that he had been killed in the battle and seized Mantinea. His blow took the war spirit out of the Spartans and they began to oppose Cleomenes' war effort.

Meanwhile, the Eurypontid King of Sparta, Eudamidas III, who was the son of Agis IV and Agiatis died. Cleomenes recalled his uncle, who had fled after Agis' execution to Messene to assume the throne. However, as soon as he returned to Sparta he was assassinated. Cleomenes' part in the assassination is unknown with Polybius claiming that he ordered it, but Plutarch disagrees.

Having bribed the ephors to allow him to continue campaigning, Cleomenes advanced into the territory of Megalopolis and started to besiege the village of Leuctra. As Cleomenes was besieging the village, an Achaean army under the command of Aratus attacked the Spartans. In the initial attack, the Spartans were repelled. However, Lydiadas of Megalopolis, the cavalry commander, disobeyed Aratus' order not to pursue the Spartans. As the cavalry scattered as they were trying to cross some difficult terrain, Cleomenes' skirmishers managed to defeat them. Encouraged by this counter-attack, the Spartans charged the main body of the Achaean army and routed them.

Confident of his strong position, Cleomenes began plotting against the ephors. After gaining the support of his stepfather, he embarked his opponents with him on a whirlwind military expedition and when they requested to stay in Arcadia due to exhaustion he returned to Sparta to carry out his plan. When he reached the city, he sent some of his loyal followers to kill the ephors. Four of the ephors were killed, while the fifth, Agylaeus, managed to escape and seek sanctuary in a temple.

Having removed the ephors, Cleomenes began his reforms. He first handed over all his land to the state; he was soon followed by his stepfather and his friends and the rest of the citizens. He divided up all the land and gave an equal lot to every citizen. To increase the declining Spartan citizen body, he made some of the perioeci into citizens. He trained 4,000 hoplites and restored the ancient Spartan military and social discipline as well as equipping his army with the Macedonian sarissa (pike) which greatly strengthened the army.

Defeat and exile

In 222 BC, Cleomenes was defeated in the Battle of Sellasia by the Achaeans, who received military aid from Antigonus III Doson of Macedon. Cleomenes left Sparta and sought refuge at Alexandria with Ptolemy Euergetes of Egypt, hoping for assistance to regain his throne.

However, when Ptolemy died, his son and successor, Ptolemy Philopator neglected Cleomenes and eventually put him under house arrest. Together with his friends, he escaped his house arrest in 219 BC and tried to incite a revolt. When he received no support from the population of Alexandria, he avoided capture by committing suicide. Thus died the man who nearly conquered all of the Peloponnese and is described by William Smith as "the last truly great man of Sparta, and, excepting perhaps Philopoemen, of all Greece."

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

I'm halting the mods for a time, but I will get back at them with full speed soon.


About all the statements above, yes the main reason for the lack of units is the population decline of the city. I wont get into more details since Bogia explained it all, but I give you this:

I will find a way to implement Cleomenian Sparta, and add perioikoi and other Lakedaimon units. The few and limited units of Sparta will be the Hippeis/Logades and perhaps I might eve replace KH for Sparta, adding other kinds of difficulties.

[Bingbangbong]

Out of curiosity, how complicated would it be to increase the number of Spartans I can recruit? If it's just editing a number in a text file, that should be pretty straightforward, as long as I know where to look.

With regards to my idea of population based recruitment, I found this code in the tarabostes_campaign campaign_script folder. It's not quite the same thing as I was suggesting, but was wondering if it might be of use, as it seems to tie unit scale to population for individual cities, if I understand it correctly.

3. Unit Scale


;----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


;Unit Scale Detection


add_events
event counter ecUnitScale
event counter EC_SMALL_UNIT_SCALE_accepted
event counter EC_SMALL_UNIT_SCALE_declined
event counter EC_NORMAL_UNIT_SCALE_accepted
event counter EC_NORMAL_UNIT_SCALE_declined
event counter EC_LARGE_UNIT_SCALE_accepted
event counter EC_LARGE_UNIT_SCALE_declined
event counter EC_HUGE_UNIT_SCALE_accepted
event counter EC_HUGE_UNIT_SCALE_declined
end_add_events
;
declare_counter allowUnitScaleReset
set_counter allowUnitScaleReset 1
;
; Detect Unit Scale by checking the garrison to population ratios
;
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName sett_086 ;Pella
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio < 0.5713
if I_EventCounter ecUnitScale = 0
set_event_counter ecUnitScale 1
if I_CompareCounter allowUnitScaleReset = 1
historic_event EC_SMALL_UNIT_SCALE true factions { all, }
end_if
end_if
terminate_monitor
end_monitor
;
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName sett_086 ;Pella
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio > 0.5713
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio < 0.7338
if I_EventCounter ecUnitScale = 0
set_event_counter ecUnitScale 2
if I_CompareCounter allowUnitScaleReset = 1
historic_event EC_NORMAL_UNIT_SCALE true factions { all, }
end_if
end_if
terminate_monitor
end_monitor
;
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName sett_086 ;Pella
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio > 0.7338
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio < 0.9900
if I_EventCounter ecUnitScale = 0
set_event_counter ecUnitScale 3
if I_CompareCounter allowUnitScaleReset = 1
historic_event EC_LARGE_UNIT_SCALE true factions { all, }
end_if
end_if
terminate_monitor
end_monitor
;
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName sett_086 ;Pella
and GarrisonToPopulationRatio > 0.9900
if I_EventCounter ecUnitScale = 0
set_event_counter ecUnitScale 4
if I_CompareCounter allowUnitScaleReset = 1
historic_event EC_HUGE_UNIT_SCALE true factions { all, }
end_if
end_if
terminate_monitor
end_monitor
;

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Out of curiosity, how complicated would it be to increase the number of Spartans I can recruit? If it's just editing a number in a text file, that should be pretty straightforward, as long as I know where to look.

Go to data\export_descr_buildings, and here change "2" to the maximum number of Spartans you want to recruit. (Well do it for example 4)

            ;Nemean Games bonus:
            stage_races 2 requires factions { cul_1, cul_2, cul_3, f_pontos, } and hidden_resource greek1
            recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hoplitai spartiates"  1  0.08  2  0  requires factions { f_kh, } 

[Khevsur]

edit spartan unit sprites and spartan added sword

[sgz]

Doesn't work with 2.1b. Infact it crashed the game on loading.!

[Roma_Victrix]

Of course it doesn't work. It was only designed for EB II v. 2.01, not 2.1b. The files are completely different and totally incompatible. I hope you made a backup, otherwise you'll have to download the entire mod again.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

I could make it compatible,with 2.1

[QuintusSertorius]

I could make it compatible,with 2.1

Unless the models are going to change, I'm not sure it's worth it. They're not what EBII Spartiates will look like.

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

Hello, I know it has been a long time, but I think I should post this here in advance.

I'm really sorry for not keeping my word on updating the mod, I simply had other interests at the time. I will try to resume it sometime soon, however all my current attempts had been frustrated by crashes in the game and I dont know how to fix it. I'm thinking about only updating it if EBII ever reaches an stable and more advanced version, as last when I tried playing the mod, the crashes were frequent and made the thing unplayable, but I will see what I can do. Also I'm not sure what the mod developers are aiming for and how far they will develop the project, but there is the possibility that the mod might die or be abandoned, be it by the devs or the community, and in such scenario I dont think making a sub-mod is worth it.

Also I cannot deny that, when looking at the quality of some of the units in EBII, if the Spartans were ever introduced in it, the unit quality would be better than that of this sub-mod. So if they are planning on adding the Spartans, I see little reason for this sub-mod if not as an alternative look for the units.