WARHAMMER FANTASY RC

[zoommooz]

How powerful are vamps in the war hammer universe? I am assuming much less then in other lore, because having vampires with 2hp, and other human bodyguards also with 2hp seems wildy inaccurate otherwise. I am happy if this is more of a gameplay thing then accurate WH stats, but I would have thought that if a 'human' has 2hp, then the vamps (not the skellies etc, but the actual vamps) would be 6hp units. Not complaining here, just interested in a bit of background, and I would not care if the units were totally unbalanced/totally lore accurate, where say vamp would be 12hp units, but with group sizes of 10, or 5.

Edit. In fact, perhaps could someone point me to some table-top tables/stats to have a look at for myself?

[logan93]

In the tabletop game vampires have only 2 wounds and Resistance 4 unless they are vampire lords wich have 5.

[Elianus]

I am not exactly familiar with Warhammer lore but...are guns supposed to be so damn powerful? A frontal charge against Imperials or Dwarves is suicide atm. Removing the ''gunpowder_infantry'' from the edu (which is IMHO essential as it makes gun troops so much more useful) makes them even more OP. Are guns such killing machines in Warhammer lore?

[Vette]

How powerful are vamps in the war hammer universe? I am assuming much less then in other lore, because having vampires with 2hp, and other human bodyguards also with 2hp seems wildy inaccurate otherwise. I am happy if this is more of a gameplay thing then accurate WH stats, but I would have thought that if a 'human' has 2hp, then the vamps (not the skellies etc, but the actual vamps) would be 6hp units. Not complaining here, just interested in a bit of background, and I would not care if the units were totally unbalanced/totally lore accurate, where say vamp would be 12hp units, but with group sizes of 10, or 5.

Edit. In fact, perhaps could someone point me to some table-top tables/stats to have a look at for myself?

In Warhammer universe vampires are very strong and I would say much stronger then is some other fantasy universes.They are immortals spending all their time perfecting their skills,magic,art of war,subterfuge/manipulation techniques and they are naturaly stronger and faster.They have 2HP only becouse of balance reasons.All bodyguard units in the mod have 1 aditional HP in order to make them usable in battle.For that Warhammer fealing where you have generals/leader leading from the front and often dueling with enemy generals/leaders.Your logic is corect,they should have more HP in relation to humans and be less numerous.But again for balance reasons they cant have these stats.Unit of 12 Vampires with 12 HP would have to recive substantial dmg and armor buffs,becouse when unit is small it gets encircled very easy.At this point soldiers cant realy make many attacks,if any becouse they constantly suffer stager animations.

You can find a bunch of army books on this page:http://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warh...0100908_224711
These are mostly unofficial,but still a very good read.If you want official books,you will have to search much more,maybe there is a torrent or something out there.
Gl,Enjoy!

I am not exactly familiar with Warhammer lore but...are guns supposed to be so damn powerful? A frontal charge against Imperials or Dwarves is suicide atm. Removing the ''gunpowder_infantry'' from the edu (which is IMHO essential as it makes gun troops so much more useful) makes them even more OP. Are guns such killing machines in Warhammer lore?

In Warhammer lore guns and canons are powerful.Personaly to determine the power of guns I take 2 difrent player perspectives.First player playing as an Empire faction against AI,lets say Orcs and second is Playing as Orcs against that Empire faction.I noticed a problem in first situation where gun units,if used well in combination with poor AI could lead to very easy battle/s,thus taking away challange and killing diversity in army composition.From second perspective I see absolutly no problem.Strong gun units force you to sacrifice units and provide more challange considering army placament,flanking and charging.So judging by these 2 posible player perspectives I think guns are unbalanced atm.I will be changing gun dmg values,but I will keap in mind these player perspectives becouse they are most important imo.So most likely base dmg will go down and bonuses will go up,but I still am not certain about actual values.
In Warhammer lore you have some "Rambo" situations considering guns.Guns should be/are Empire theme.

[zoommooz]

In Warhammer universe vampires are very strong and I would say much stronger then is some other fantasy universes.They are immortals spending all their time perfecting their skills,magic,art of war,subterfuge/manipulation techniques and they are naturaly stronger and faster.They have 2HP only becouse of balance reasons.All bodyguard units in the mod have 1 aditional HP in order to make them usable in battle.For that Warhammer fealing where you have generals/leader leading from the front and often dueling with enemy generals/leaders.Your logic is corect,they should have more HP in relation to humans and be less numerous.But again for balance reasons they cant have these stats.Unit of 12 Vampires with 12 HP would have to recive substantial dmg and armor buffs,becouse when unit is small it gets encircled very easy.At this point soldiers cant realy make many attacks,if any becouse they constantly suffer stager animations.

You can find a bunch of army books on this page:http://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warh...0100908_224711
These are mostly unofficial,but still a very good read.If you want official books,you will have to search much more,maybe there is a torrent or something out there.
Gl,Enjoy!

What about treating them (from a gameplay perspective) as very heavy units. I noticed in third age total war that trolls, while small in number (12) can still fight well within a crowd of other units. I wonder if this is done by weight alone, because the 12hp, 12 units I would love to do, but will probably go for a 8hp, 15 unit squad and see if it works.

[Elianus]

@Vette I see. The main problem as I see it right now is not so much the damage but the insane accuracy. You see the guns killing entire units in a matter of 3 volleys at MAXIMUM range. Also, I highly suggest removing the ''gunpowder_infantry'' from the gun units (it allows them to fire all at once without the dumb delays and they also become more useful during sieges) and then deciding on the other values.

[Vossie]

What about treating them (from a gameplay perspective) as very heavy units. I noticed in third age total war that trolls, while small in number (12) can still fight well within a crowd of other units. I wonder if this is done by weight alone, because the 12hp, 12 units I would love to do, but will probably go for a 8hp, 15 unit squad and see if it works.

I believe the trolls are classified as Elephants in TATW and that's why they can fight well even when surrounded.

[smitty]

To date, the RC system is the most reliable. Awesome work vette. Check the PM I will send you! Also, what changes did you make in the campaign_script? Can those other files be used without your campaign_script.txt?

[Elianus]

Will you be updating the mod for the new merc version?

[Vette]

Yes I will as soon as I find some free time.

[Vette]

Decided to remove aditional HP from every unit exept generals and monsters.Added bonuses to compensate.Also toned down guns a bit,specificly removed bp from long rage shooters and reduced dmg for shooters also.Skirmishers retained bp and got dmg boost equal or higher depending on tier,also reduced their range.
Now compatible with Kahvis Mercs 3.3.

[martyran]

Cannot wait to try Liked your first version once I got use to the changes Thanks
Rather than repost
Tried the new stats
Loved it felt more warhammerish on the battles found my leaders the real tought now and greatsword units doing well I usually didnt bother with them
The gun units a lot better balance now I think worth having
thanks !!

[castlecreeps]

Decided to remove aditional HP from every unit exept generals and monsters.Added bonuses to compensate.Also toned down guns a bit,specificly removed bp from long rage shooters and reduced dmg for shooters also.Skirmishers retained bp and got dmg boost equal or higher depending on tier,also reduced their range.
Now compatible with Kahvis Mercs 3.3.

I wish everyone realizes that the vanilla unit EDU needs serious tweaking for balance in better gameplay as well as matching stats from the table game.

In my opinion, your latest edu change is the best Ive ever seen. The game play is fantastic and the combat is really nasty. Last played vh/vh DE with Call of Warsandbox and Smitty's tweak of the campaign script and my attempt at including Very Bad AI, around turn 80~ I think.
Nothing is perfect with Call of Warhammer, but these changes are great. Bodyguards, Generals, and Elites really make or break a battle and require you to adapt mid fight.
I think monsters should be tweaked a tiny bit by like 10-15%, not halving their HP like some people cry in other threads.
Everyone always complains about gunpowder units but they are fine. Artillery is absolutely fine if not too powerful. Muskets require strategy to use and the mechanic in the base total war game is not well fleshed out anyways.

One thing of note, Dwarves are very easy with my Dark Elves (no calv) but impossible with my Orcs. Im guessing the problem lies with Orc units. Although, I think it might actual be in Orc unit production and not the stats themselves. Big'uns and Black Orcs seem fine. Since you did such a great job I'll throw the idea of updating the building EDU if you want. Other than the glaring problem with production in Orc and most evil settlements, I think a good 20-25% slash on queue times and upkeep? Granted this is skewed from Call of Warhammer Sandbox with an earlier than expected Storm of Chaos.

I'll probably make some changes myself if no one is interested.

Other than that, great job, really reinvigorated me into playing again.

[k/t]

Trolls are infantry in TATW, that's why they can climb ladders.

Yay, RC!

I downloaded COW in September, but then my hard drive crashed. Luckily I hadn't wasted 6 hours trying to follow the installation instructions before the drive died. Now I have to download everything again, but your files give me a bigger impetus to try this mod.

[Vette]

I wish everyone realizes that the vanilla unit EDU needs serious tweaking for balance in better gameplay as well as matching stats from the table game.

In my opinion, your latest edu change is the best Ive ever seen. The game play is fantastic and the combat is really nasty. Last played vh/vh DE with Call of Warsandbox and Smitty's tweak of the campaign script and my attempt at including Very Bad AI, around turn 80~ I think.
Nothing is perfect with Call of Warhammer, but these changes are great. Bodyguards, Generals, and Elites really make or break a battle and require you to adapt mid fight.
I think monsters should be tweaked a tiny bit by like 10-15%, not halving their HP like some people cry in other threads.
Everyone always complains about gunpowder units but they are fine. Artillery is absolutely fine if not too powerful. Muskets require strategy to use and the mechanic in the base total war game is not well fleshed out anyways.

One thing of note, Dwarves are very easy with my Dark Elves (no calv) but impossible with my Orcs. Im guessing the problem lies with Orc units. Although, I think it might actual be in Orc unit production and not the stats themselves. Big'uns and Black Orcs seem fine. Since you did such a great job I'll throw the idea of updating the building EDU if you want. Other than the glaring problem with production in Orc and most evil settlements, I think a good 20-25% slash on queue times and upkeep? Granted this is skewed from Call of Warhammer Sandbox with an earlier than expected Storm of Chaos.

I'll probably make some changes myself if no one is interested.

Other than that, great job, really reinvigorated me into playing again.

Yes I to was not happy with vanilla EDU.This is actualy 2nd mod I made since I started playing CoW.1st mod was pure RC and that was its major problem.Felt to "realistic".This 1 is based on RC 2.0 but with many changes so combat feals unreal,which gives that Warhammerish fealing to it.I realy am quite happy with this system so far.

Generals are very important in Warhammer.I totaly wanted them to be used in battle and not "stashed" bahind the armie.
Monster HP is quite high I belive.You think they kill to slow?Or they die to fast?well these to scenarios are conected but yea wanna know what you think?
My aproach to monsters was shock mess makers.I think of them as a unit that pays its upkeap if you use it alot for charging and breaking lines and not position fighting.

I hate orcs with a passion hehe .Stats are fine tho hehe,problem is in armor/weapon upgreades.Dwarves and Empire have so many units that have 3 armor and weapon bonus.This totaly messes the balance.I wanted to make them all with only 1 armor upgreade to balance things out,but I did not want to "delete" the armor skins people spent alot of time making...So I left it as it was and now its a bit messy.I was thinking of increasing the number of tier 3 and 4 (orc)units,but havent decided yet.
Other problem is upkeap as you noticed but its not just Orcs.I havent figured what would be the best way to modify it considering changes I made,so I left old upkeep costs.You might have noticed an insane unit like Berserkers cost only 200 a turn...
I planed to edit building file but never found enough time for that.Unit production is to fast for some factions and in some cases max unit pools are to high.I plan to leave it as it is till 1.6 comes out.Then finish all the unfinished stuff and implement new upgreades to.

[Vette]

Trolls are infantry in TATW, that's why they can climb ladders.

Yay, RC!

I downloaded COW in September, but then my hard drive crashed. Luckily I hadn't wasted 6 hours trying to follow the installation instructions before the drive died. Now I have to download everything again, but your files give me a bigger impetus to try this mod.

Its actualy not a classic RC,but its based on RC 2.0.You have a file(now outdated hehe) on first page.
Hope you like it!

[DeathtoEgo]

I found a few errors in the edu, not sure if they would cause crashes but probably should be fixed if only for consistency, most are there from the vanilla RoDG, like the missing commas, the others are from Mercs or RC not sure, check spoiler

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Line# 1497 "Death_Heads" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1532 "Company_of_Honour" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1603 "Redeemers" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1637 "Marienburg_guard" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1741 "Drakwald_patrol" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1806 "Swords_of_Ulric" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1837 "Grundel_defenders" no comma between cost and upkeep
Line# 1868 "Sterntower_marksmen" no comma between cost and upkeep
line# 2731 "knights_of_realm_bodyguard" "very-hardy" should be "very_hardy"
Line# 3174 "Champion_knights_of_chaos" frighten foot should be frighten_foot
line# 1852 "Nuln_guard" "stat_cost 1, 1100 220, 100, 100, 1100, 2, 800", no comma between cost and upkeep
line# 10314 "Norse_dwarfs_warriors" "very hardy" should be "very_hardy"

[Vette]

@DeathtoEgo Thx muchly for good eye.
These will not cause crashes,but should be fixed naturaly.
I havent planed to touch anything till 1.6 comes out,but I might fix these (very hardy and frighten foot are totaly mine hehe).

[castlecreeps]

Yes I to was not happy with vanilla EDU.This is actualy 2nd mod I made since I started playing CoW.1st mod was pure RC and that was its major problem.Felt to "realistic".This 1 is based on RC 2.0 but with many changes so combat feals unreal,which gives that Warhammerish fealing to it.I realy am quite happy with this system so far.

Generals are very important in Warhammer.I totaly wanted them to be used in battle and not "stashed" bahind the armie.
Monster HP is quite high I belive.You think they kill to slow?Or they die to fast?well these to scenarios are conected but yea wanna know what you think?
My aproach to monsters was shock mess makers.I think of them as a unit that pays its upkeap if you use it alot for charging and breaking lines and not position fighting.

I hate orcs with a passion hehe .Stats are fine tho hehe,problem is in armor/weapon upgreades.Dwarves and Empire have so many units that have 3 armor and weapon bonus.This totaly messes the balance.I wanted to make them all with only 1 armor upgreade to balance things out,but I did not want to "delete" the armor skins people spent alot of time making...So I left it as it was and now its a bit messy.I was thinking of increasing the number of tier 3 and 4 (orc)units,but havent decided yet.
Other problem is upkeap as you noticed but its not just Orcs.I havent figured what would be the best way to modify it considering changes I made,so I left old upkeep costs.You might have noticed an insane unit like Berserkers cost only 200 a turn...
I planed to edit building file but never found enough time for that.Unit production is to fast for some factions and in some cases max unit pools are to high.I plan to leave it as it is till 1.6 comes out.Then finish all the unfinished stuff and implement new upgreades to.

Sorry for the delayed reply, work has been crazy. I take back what I said about monster units. I think theyre fine. However, I did encounter some issues with High Elves.

With their units being well pretty ridiculous in turns of defensive power as well as offensive. I know that their strenght is in defense, with their downside being expense. But in terms of balance, as well as fighting stacked AI armies (no extra armor or weapon upgrades), I think they need to be tweaked with a few nerfs, bringing down their attack values or at least defensive skill, White Lions are pretty op. Also Phoenix Guard have a shield bonus in the EDU, not sure if this is intentional or a mistake. I got lazy and slightly nerfed them myself also tweaking some of my DE units to their High Elf equivalent as best I could (not equal, but trading off stats etc, a mere +1 can make a big difference), Dragon princes excluded. At this point im more concerned with game balance as Im actively playing a campaign with some scripts still left in it.

I had one particular frustrating defensive siege battle that kept ending in a complete clowning against a 1 star general with a full stack army. After my tweak it turned into a hard fought but reasonable victory, with units on the walls being reasonably depleted by elite attackers rather than just plowed over. The combat because less arcade and the victory was owed to my two blackguard generals and my walls.

I've had some pretty good fights over the long(ish) span I have played CoW, and I still think this EDU is on the right track.

My personal changes arent perfect and are obviously biased to the faction I'm playing (one which was originally pretty much unplayable), but I'll keep messing with them until 1.6 to make a bloody challenging and fun campaign, and then hopefully look for your new edu update (:

[Vette]

True all HE units exept White Lions and Silver Helms have 3 armor bonus.All DE units exept Swordsmen and Spearmen have no armor bonus,where those two have 2 armor bonus.Orcs also have no armor bonus and Empire have alot of units with 3 armor bonus.Which makes noticable difrence in terms of balance.

In WFRC for 1.6 all units with armor will have only 1 armor upgreade,no matter the number of made skins.I will take the last top upgreade skin as upgreade.Also all the scripted stacks will be recompositioned.Atm some scripted stacks are to powerful with WFRC.

Good thing is that you can always change things like this.I my self added Assassin spawn for DE start.With them I was able to survive HE stacks and after 40+turns in debt I finaly started to make money.I realy enjoyed that campaign ...