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Thread: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

  1. #41
    chesser2538's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    it's alright with me also.

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  2. #42
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Okay, I'm back from my grandparents' place and at my computer, hopefully I can type more coherently now. Though just to make note, the point I was trying to get across earlier is that there's no real point in naming continents until we at least have cultures nailed down. Calling them X, Y, or Z continent is just fine when all we're talking is landforms and climates. But fine, here goes nothing.

    If we're really going for globetrotting empires here, then I guess Arion would be the candidate for it as has been mentioned. Here are a couple of draft names that can be translated to/changed entirely for different cultures:

    http://imgur.com/hnM6j3H

    1. Khio Na (KEE-oh NAH): The northwestern continent. Literally translates to "Big west."

    2. Astonogo Veli (AH-stohn-OH-goh VEH-li): The large islands south of Khio Na. Not exactly a continent but figured it would be nice to have. Translates to "Warm water islands."

    3. Mannasin Dest (MAN-nas-EEN DEST): The north central continent. Literally translates to "Mannas' pride" because the Arionic Imperials are nothing if not pious.

    4. Oseto Veli: (os-EH-to VEH-li) The islands directly west of Manasin Dest. Literally translates to "Bountiful islands" because they were historically a rich trade center, as I laid out in the previous incarnation. Also not a continent, but needed a name.

    5. Anvakhano (AN-vah-KHA-no): The big southern continent. Literally translates to "Vast" because it's pretty damn big.

    6. Essita-ên (ess-EE-tah AYN): The far eastern islands. A compound form of the words for "unknown" and "new" because, due to their distance, these would have been the last islands to be discovered. Again, not a continent, but useful.
    Last edited by Dan the Man; September 06, 2014 at 07:14 PM.
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  3. #43
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Nice! For my part, my only suggestion would be renaming Khio Na to 'sunset lands' or 'twilit lands', both due to it obviously sitting to the west of Arion's heartland on Mannasin Dest, and so Arion can refer to the Falinesti as the Tolkien-y 'men of twilight' as we discussed on Skype earlier I dunno how either of these names would be rendered in Arionic though, so I'll leave this matter to you.

  4. #44

    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    I like the Arionic names for the continents and islands a lot.

  5. #45
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Nice! For my part, my only suggestion would be renaming Khio Na to 'sunset lands' or 'twilit lands', both due to it obviously sitting to the west of Arion's heartland on Mannasin Dest, and so Arion can refer to the Falinesti as the Tolkien-y 'men of twilight' as we discussed on Skype earlier I dunno how either of these names would be rendered in Arionic though, so I'll leave this matter to you.
    To be honest with you, I don't like the Tolkien-y angle much because I think we should try to be more original than that. I'd rather not change it at this point. You can call it whatever you want in your own lore.

    Oh, and I supposed I should probably cast some votes. I vote no on the solar system, no yes on Barry's terrain change, yes to the islands, and yes to the giants, and I'll explain why for the first two one:

    Solar system: It's just not important right now. Plus this isn't a space setting so it really shouldn't matter. At the very least I can see religions interpreting different things by the appearance of constellations but all that would require is a basic star chart (if we even really want to go that far), not any deeply fleshed out ideas of space. Also what's with the distant companion sun? Do we even have any way of knowing what affect that might have on how life develops on our planet? You say you determined everything "scientifically" but you provided no sources, nor any explanation of any kind for your conclusions. So in the meantime, I'm not buying it.

    Barry's terrain change: Maybe we don't need a fertile crescent in that region to begin with. We already have one in very close proximity and the culture I designed for that region last time is very tribal and unorganized anyway. Also our plotting has so far completely ignored the way water (and most of the natural world) actually works, so the only way for that lake to be there is through some cataclysmic force, like the creation of a crater (and a huge one at that). Our continents make no sense because they ignore plate tectonics, so the possibility of it being a low lying region between two tectonic plates that filled with water (a la the Black Sea, Great Rift Valley, etc) isn't valid, nor is glaciation because there would be a ton of smaller lakes in the region (a la The Great Lakes, Minnesota, etc). Other than that, how do you end up with a body of water that big in practically the middle of nowhere? The only way that makes sense to me is some kind of cataclysmic impact - likely many billions if not trillions of years into our planet's history, long before the appearance of life - that filled with water over time and formed a huge lakes. If that's still too far-fetched, then I propose that we either shrink the lake or come up with a system for tectonic plate boundaries. Or, you know, you could always outvote me.

    EDIT: Changed my mind on the terrain change as I thought it out further. I still don't like it, but whatever, a crater lake that big is probably no more realistic than anything else. Nevertheless, I still think we need to be thinking more realistically about water flow, plate tectonics, etc., not to mention about how many "fertile crescents" we actually need.
    Last edited by Dan the Man; August 31, 2014 at 10:59 PM.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
    EDIT: Changed my mind on the terrain change as I thought it out further. I still don't like it, but whatever, a crater lake that big is probably no more realistic than anything else. Nevertheless, I still think we need to be thinking more realistically about water flow, plate tectonics, etc., not to mention about how many "fertile crescents" we actually need.
    I have a suggestion for the Fertile Crescents -

    -One in eastern Khio Na that in 1.0 was the Edalanesti(River Culture) or in the southwestern lands(Lake Culture) perhaps could become a combination of Dafcikar and Edalanesti, with one being the result of groups migrating away from the Fertile Crescent either to the northeast or southwest over a period of time. As I don't think two Fertile Crescents on Khio Na is really necessary with the map changes.
    -One based around the eastern rivers on Anvakhano, I believe this is the one that Kip in 1.0 had be a Persian influenced culture. But in this game, seeing as there is at least two players interested in creating a East Asian culture, that may change.
    -Final one should be on Mannasin Dest to serve as the basis of Arionic and Northmen cultures.
    -Islands can either be populated by groups who migrate away from the closest Fertile Crescent or be home to non-Fertile Crescent groups of people who would likely end up being highly influenced/conquered by those of the Fertile Crescent. If inhabited at all, island populations may come later as people migrate further from the Fertile Crescents

  7. #47
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
    To be honest with you, I don't like the Tolkien-y angle much because I think we should try to be more original than that. I'd rather not change it at this point. You can call it whatever you want in your own lore.

    Oh, and I supposed I should probably cast some votes. I vote no on the solar system, no yes on Barry's terrain change, yes to the islands, and yes to the giants, and I'll explain why for the first two one:

    Solar system: It's just not important right now. Plus this isn't a space setting so it really shouldn't matter. At the very least I can see religions interpreting different things by the appearance of constellations but all that would require is a basic star chart (if we even really want to go that far), not any deeply fleshed out ideas of space. Also what's with the distant companion sun? Do we even have any way of knowing what affect that might have on how life develops on our planet? You say you determined everything "scientifically" but you provided no sources, nor any explanation of any kind for your conclusions. So in the meantime, I'm not buying it.

    Barry's terrain change: Maybe we don't need a fertile crescent in that region to begin with. We already have one in very close proximity and the culture I designed for that region last time is very tribal and unorganized anyway. Also our plotting has so far completely ignored the way water (and most of the natural world) actually works, so the only way for that lake to be there is through some cataclysmic force, like the creation of a crater (and a huge one at that). Our continents make no sense because they ignore plate tectonics, so the possibility of it being a low lying region between two tectonic plates that filled with water (a la the Black Sea, Great Rift Valley, etc) isn't valid, nor is glaciation because there would be a ton of smaller lakes in the region (a la The Great Lakes, Minnesota, etc). Other than that, how do you end up with a body of water that big in practically the middle of nowhere? The only way that makes sense to me is some kind of cataclysmic impact - likely many billions if not trillions of years into our planet's history, long before the appearance of life - that filled with water over time and formed a huge lakes. If that's still too far-fetched, then I propose that we either shrink the lake or come up with a system for tectonic plate boundaries. Or, you know, you could always outvote me.

    EDIT: Changed my mind on the terrain change as I thought it out further. I still don't like it, but whatever, a crater lake that big is probably no more realistic than anything else. Nevertheless, I still think we need to be thinking more realistically about water flow, plate tectonics, etc., not to mention about how many "fertile crescents" we actually need.
    Fair enough, I don't mind keeping it as Khio Na then.

    The cataclysmic meteor impact explanation for the Great Lake being a thing when the Earth was young works for me. That said, I don't know why it'd leave the lake surrounded entirely by mountains: not exactly a lot of mountains here, here or here. If you think that it's too unrealistic as it stands now, I'd be down for shrinking it a bit, though I do think we should keep it; it could easily serve as the beating heart of any agricultural civilization to take root there, including the Northern Dafcikar if you so choose, plus it'd be a great source of conflict on the western end of that continent - nevermind strategic positioning or glory, if the shores of that lake (and even areas further away from it, if we count irrigation networks) are hyper-fertile then any king with a brain, regardless of time period will really want its agricultural bounty for themselves. Even if it's no longer classed as a full-blown Fertile Crescent, it could still be like the Canadian Prairies or Ukraine of Khio Na.
    Last edited by Barry Goldwater; September 01, 2014 at 09:22 AM.

  8. #48
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    No no, that's quite alright, go with your plan. I'd like to take this opportunity to announce my resignation. I'm passing all hosting responsibilities to Barry. Good luck to you all with the project, I mean that sincerely! Unfortunately my heart just really isn't in it and I don't have the time to devote to something that I don't see as being worthwhile. Barry, being the interested party from the beginning, will be far more able to handle this.
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  9. #49
    chesser2538's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    To clear up any questions dan I used a computer program called universe sandbox 2, I verified the radius mass and orbit of the system to be correct using basis astrophysics. The second companion sun is prevelant in a number of galaxties and due to its far away location, the only prevalant view of it would be in the night sky. Its size viewed from earth would be the equivalent of a high luminescent jupiter seen from earth. To counterbalance the variation in the planets different mass and gravity as well as explain the climate system that you guys developed, I formed a twin system of moons that should create a tidal cycle very similar to earth, as well as allowing for similar weather conditions.

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  10. #50
    Gone 2 the Celts's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    I vote yes to the map additions/changes.

    As for the fertile crescents, while I am fine with all of the proposed places, I don't think that they're really necessary. While the Tigris and Euphrates in Mesopotamia, the Nile in Egypt, the Indus and Ganges in India, and the Yellow River in China classify as river valleys, agriculture was also independently created in places like the Andes and New Guinea. Those two aren't exactly fertile crescents.

    Also, while I would like plate tectonics in a game like this (have certain regions be afflicted with volcanic eruptions and earthquakes from time to time), I'm willing to overlook "minor" stuff like that so we can all enjoy the world.

    Edit: Nice job on the place names, dan!
    Last edited by Gone 2 the Celts; September 01, 2014 at 06:51 PM.
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  11. #51
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Yeah, so as Dan said I am now assuming management of this game. Before we proceed though, in addition to my earlier request (via PM) to allow us to keep Arion and the Dafcikar in the game, I'd like to publicly request his permission to use both the current terrain map and any 'blank' base version of it that we can use for a future cultural/political map; they'd certainly make any future changes to the map + the construction of a political map much easier.

  12. #52
    Gone 2 the Celts's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Sorry you couldn't see this through the whole way for a second time, Dan. Hopefully we can complete this and use it for future IH's, allowing your idea to thrive! Thanks for all of the work you've done on both projects, as I'm sure you committed countless hours to a game on the internet.

    I'm sure you can see this through Barry, as you're kinda the godfather of IH and your ideas are always creative and intelligent
    Quote Originally Posted by Kip Bohannon View Post
    I'm actually quite fond of Egyptian mythology. I'm quite fond of anything with golden penises, really.

  13. #53
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Thanks for the vote of confidence, G2TC In other news - OK everyone, I got some very good news from Dan:

    1) We can keep Arion, the Dafcikar and a third culture of his (though I have yet to receive his notes on it). This means it'll actually make sense for us to keep his universal names for the continents, in addition to giving us some additional major actors in our world's history for our own cultures to interact with.
    2) Dan will be sending me the maps he's made for this world tomorrow, which means we don't have to waste our time drawing new ones.
    3) He may also be staying on as our map editor if his schedule permits it, which will of course be tremendously helpful (not to mention he's infinitely more skilled than I am in the fine art of drawing maps ).

    At this rate, we may be out of this chapter and into the really good stuff - actually laying down our respective cultures & peoples - by Sunday or Monday. I for one have no more changes to suggest to this world's physical appearance or flora & fauna, so yeah.

  14. #54
    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Just so you guys know for scale, continent 3., or Mannasin Dest, would be about the size of the whole of Europe. The fourth continent (right below it), would be roughly comparable to the former Soviet Union/Comintern (USSR+China+Warsaw Pact), using this map.


    I'm not sure what the ground rules of this game are, but I think it would be interesting to have 1) a medium fantasy setting (i.e. limited magic and foreign races, but still ruled by physical laws), similar to Game of Thrones, 2) overarching cultures (e.g. similar to the Indo-Europeans, as the Indian, Greek, Roman, and Norse cultures shared similar names and pantheons, as well as similar cultures towards the Slavic populations).

    This was an older builder profile for a ruleset that I had created in 2011 that never took off. Basically, you would start out with "points" to customize your faction (Infantry I-V). Everyone started out at 0, and you needed to invest within your faction to unlock new levels. So if you started out with 15 points. You could only get regulars in a handful of slots. If you invested all 5 into, say, infantry, you could get Legendary Units, which would cost invested Prestige/Magic to recruit as well.



    If we are doing a fantasy universe, which I strongly support, I would suggest having a passive system of religion. I.e. a background of deities, spirits, theologies, as well as beliefs. You can have something like the Old Gods, which are polytheistic and pagan, and a new religious movement, which attempts to supplant the old religions in favor of a new religion (depending on how far you want to go). Alternatively, we could keep this and have low fantasy.

  15. #55
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Yep, I believe the plan was to have larger continents so players could simultaneously have a lot of space to themselves, while also allowing for easier intercultural interactions. I personally don't mind the current layout of continents, myself.

    I don't think we've really decided on the exact kind of game we want to play yet; whether it's a traditional faction game, a traditional RPG with everyone controlling individual characters, or a blend of both (either a political game where we're playing a country's government, or as Kip suggested in the bar, a more military-focused one where we were generals taking orders from an NPC gov't). ATM, the plan's to build up our world first, in a way that allows us to set any of the above kinds of games in any period in our lore; so we could bounce from being the captains or noble commanders of a medieval army, to tribesmen in the Stone/Bronze Age trying to establish a kingdom, to even Renaissance or modern politicians if we get that far, to medieval factions, and so on.

    On magic: the community consensus last time was that it was an all-around bad idea, and I don't see that having changed this time around. Even standardized magic rules were hard to balance the last time we tried them in IH, and when potentially any faction could claim to have a magical tradition of its own (mirroring the real world, after all European & African black magic f'rex have their differences) it becomes nigh impossible. There was also a lot of opposition to having high fantasy elements like elves, dwarves, etc.; in the end, we settled on humans being the only sentient and civilized race, with a race of giants akin to Skyrim's (though we may be shifting them to be a tropical species instead, if the current poll is any indication) and Falmer-y Dwarves who are basically a barbaric offshoot of humanity that never left the caves. Atm, besides resurrecting a load of megafauna from the past the only 'fantastic' species we had were sea serpents & what are basically giant land wyrms (minus fire breath) hanging around alongside megadeathwhales.

    I wouldn't mind the addition of some more fantastical creatures like unicorns as long as 1) they aren't so numerous & powerful that they basically make it impossible for humanity to develop, and 2) they don't make factions that can control them imba (an example from the last BaW was a proposal for tameable griffins, which would render even the tallest & most formidable walls virtually useless - you can just have your army fly over them lol). I don't think a majority's in favor of additional civilized humanoid races though, same as the last incarnation of BaW.

    On cultures: Eyup, that's pretty much what we're aiming for. First there are huge cultural families, then smaller cultural families, and finally individual cultures & nations. We even mapped out our humanity's version of the 'Out of Africa' theory, basic culture groups, and Fertile Crescents + ideal locations for early civilizations down. (note that those maps are outdated, though we could probably transplant the movements & Fertile Crescents/early civs onto this game)

    I think that was the pattern we were going for, most of the world initially being polytheistic before new monotheistic faiths arose to challenge them; though without the fantasy elements ofc, I think overall IH tried to go for a low fantasy last time and it's likely that we'll do the same this time. We even had a vague Judaism-Christianity thing going on with Dan's Arion and Sakhem civilizations, the latter influencing the former to adopt their monotheistic religion in a somewhat similar process to Judaism's influence on early Christianity and Christianity's later rise independent of Judaism.

  16. #56
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    OK guys, so here's my plan for the next few days:

    1) Get the maps from Dan. They're kinda important after all, ya know
    2) Have said map edited to suit our needs. If Dan can't do it, and none of you guys are willing or able to edit the map either, then in the interest of speed I will try to do it myself, but I must warn y'all beforehand that I am an awful mapmaker and thus that patches of ugliness will almost certainly ensue as a result.
    3) Advance straight to chapter 3 as soon as we can, preferably by Sunday or Monday at the latest. I can make accommodations for latecomers (I and Rose have launched a recruiting drive of sorts in the past two or three days & I'd absolutely encourage you guys to do the same, there's no point to a game of this scope with only 4 or 5 players after all), but it remains in our interest to move forward as quickly as possible.

    If you guys have any new changes to the map, flora, or fauna that you'd like to suggest, please do it before Sunday/Monday so we can get this chapter out of the way ASAP. Then we can spend all the time we want making cultures & factions to fill the map, that always seemed to be the more important part of BaW to me anyway. As WEF 3.0 has tragically demonstrated, letting the first preparatory phase of a game drag on for too long means player interest can quickly die off before we hit the good stuff, so let's not let that happen again. Are you guys cool with this plan?

  17. #57
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    I have a writeup containing a synthesized version of some worldbuilding notes I had been throwing together in preparation for the game. It's about halfway finished. I should have the final version to you via dropbox (it's a big file) before the end of the week, Barry.
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  18. #58
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Wondrous, I certainly look forward to reading 'em Shall I also expect the maps to be bundled with these notes, or to come in a separate package?

  19. #59
    Dan the Man's Avatar S A M U R A I F O O L
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Yep, maps will be included.
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  20. #60
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: [BAW 2] Truncated Chapters 1 and 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the Man View Post
    Yep, maps will be included.
    If I may ask, will these maps also include the requested changes (Rose's islands and my own proposed changes to the map, both of which we already voted in favor of on the last page) or will they be unedited?

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