Debate over movement points

[anonimo272]

Hi there
Because of the slow campaigns i need to do in EB i tried to change the movement points
I put them in a more historical way, i gave generals, captain and named characters 2000 points
What happened ?
heaven in earth

I will put here the results i achieved and the cons and pros of this massive change (yet a easy one) on the mod
-to start the AI now has time to react to your attacks, as you have to react theirs, in history armies didn't need years
to counter offensives (unless they didn't have the means)
-that means that factions like seleukids are in fact extremely powerfull
-turn times are slower for me they are now 60seconds, while it normal EB they were 30 tought this number wont go much up, since
-the AI will not have a zillion of small stacks instead they tend to concentrate their forces
-another problem may be the player, the player can exploit this, but i believe it's up to us to restrain from doing it
-factions advance a bit faster because of this since they dont need much time to reach their destination, tought it's still
in a balanced way and still slower than any other mod i played (and i love that)
-now the biggest problem is of course the cpu, if you dont have a modern cpu i don't recommend this
-i expected weird behavior from the AI, for example: AI "rebels" (sorry still can't write the name) from thrace moving to areas like
france or iberia tought they didn't, so i didn't observe armies from other sides of the world where they shouldn't
also the movement points for diplomats weren't touched because diplomats wander everywhere and it would have strange implications
like takshika allying with a iberian tribe (example)
-finally the map evolves in a natural EB way


tought so far i cant say much about how the AI will use it against the player since the first release hasn't a agressive CAI for now
tought i can estimate that it wont affect us that much

for me it creates a amazing experience where the AI gahters it's forces in a more reasonable way, and besides heavy movement points
restriction results in a less powerfull AI wich spreads more it's forces because they recruit everywhere and cant unite
their armies fast enought to respond to threats

with this thread i just want a debate about it, because i can't have a good base of testing this alone (so far only did 30 turns),
so we can think on this more deeply, tought i am confident that for people with better cpus it enhances the mod

[arthuros]

Well imo, movement points (including navies) should be slightly increased.. and i mean slightly

[anonimo272]

i am not debating for slighty, i am trying to debate to hugely and historical tought not for the mod, just for a recomendation to those who have good cpus

[Lord Baal]

Armies and navies should have their movement points adjusted for what in reality they would walk/sail in a three months period, because that's the length of a turn in the mod.

[Chris P. Bacon]

How do you change movement points?

[anonimo272]

Armies and navies should have their movement points adjusted for what in reality they would walk/sail in a three months period, because that's the length of a turn in the mod.

i agree tought i think it shouldn't be implemented on the mod, but it should be a recomendation because it will affect your turn times
right with the 2000 i can reach almost the two farthest regions with the seleukids, dont know if it's too much or too little, if someone could tell me how much a army could march in 3 months that would be great

Cris P. to change movement points go to your mod directory then EB2-data-
descr_character and open with notepad
there you can adjust the movement points to named characters, generals, admirals, spies, assassins and diplomats

mine has 2000 for generals, named characters and 4000 to admirals

[paulus]

Anonimo, why not post a little AAR of sorts here, demonstrating how the massively expanded movement points work in the actual campaign? Include plenty of screenshots. If it works well, and more people test it, we may implement it.

[anonimo272]

ok i will do it, but not an AAR i lack the proper english and i am at the moment eager to continue to conquer the world with the romans
tought it will take some hours
every 10 turns a screenshot would be good i think, showing me selecting a character so you would be certain i dont cheat (it would show my movement options)
i will do it with pritanoi to not interfere with the map
2000 movement points to generals and to named characters
4000 to admirals
tought note those are just for testing in no way i say those are the right numbers (dunno if it's need to be higher or lower)

[mr mojo risin]

Hi there
Because of the slow campaigns i need to do in EB i tried to change the movement points
I put them in a more historical way, i gave generals, captain and named characters 2000 points
What happened ?
heaven in earth

I will put here the results i achieved and the cons and pros of this massive change (yet a easy one) on the mod
-to start the AI now has time to react to your attacks, as you have to react theirs, in history armies didn't need years
to counter offensives (unless they didn't have the means)
-that means that factions like seleukids are in fact extremely powerfull
-turn times are slower for me they are now 60seconds, while it normal EB they were 30 tought this number wont go much up, since
-the AI will not have a zillion of small stacks instead they tend to concentrate their forces
-another problem may be the player, the player can exploit this, but i believe it's up to us to restrain from doing it
-factions advance a bit faster because of this since they dont need much time to reach their destination, tought it's still
in a balanced way and still slower than any other mod i played (and i love that)
-now the biggest problem is of course the cpu, if you dont have a modern cpu i don't recommend this
-i expected weird behavior from the AI, for example: AI "rebels" (sorry still can't write the name) from thrace moving to areas like
france or iberia tought they didn't, so i didn't observe armies from other sides of the world where they shouldn't
also the movement points for diplomats weren't touched because diplomats wander everywhere and it would have strange implications
like takshika allying with a iberian tribe (example)
-finally the map evolves in a natural EB way


tought so far i cant say much about how the AI will use it against the player since the first release hasn't a agressive CAI for now
tought i can estimate that it wont affect us that much

for me it creates a amazing experience where the AI gahters it's forces in a more reasonable way, and besides heavy movement points
restriction results in a less powerfull AI wich spreads more it's forces because they recruit everywhere and cant unite
their armies fast enought to respond to threats

with this thread i just want a debate about it, because i can't have a good base of testing this alone (so far only did 30 turns),
so we can think on this more deeply, tought i am confident that for people with better cpus it enhances the mod

put your file up as a sub mod for others .ta

[anonimo272]

put your file up as a sub mod for others .ta

not just yet i want to have something historical accurate, otherwise i will be eaten alive ;p
tought here is the file wich i am testing right nowdescr_character.txt

[Ballpoint202]

i agree tought i think it shouldn't be implemented on the mod, but it should be a recomendation because it will affect your turn times
right with the 2000 i can reach almost the two farthest regions with the seleukids, dont know if it's too much or too little, if someone could tell me how much a army could march in 3 months that would be great

Cris P. to change movement points go to your mod directory then EB2-data-
descr_character and open with notepad
there you can adjust the movement points to named characters, generals, admirals, spies, assassins and diplomats

mine has 2000 for generals, named characters and 4000 to admirals

The Orbis Project has information on ancient movement rates.

[anonimo272]

thanks i will have a look at it after i finalize the tests

[Ferdiad]

The Orbis Project has information on ancient movement rates.

This should be a gameplay decision not a historical one.

[anonimo272]

i think it should be both
historical and gameplay decision
in theory i think it can be achieved a decision wich favors both
tought even if it proves so i think it should be optional or just a sub mod, not everyone has shiny new cpus s:

now back to next turn clicking

[Moros]

Yeah as Paullus said, some coverage of the implemented changes would be highly interesting.
Increasing movement points is actually one of things currently being discussed.

[Emperor Hantscher]

Hannibal left New Carthage in late spring 218 BC and reached the Rhone In September of the same year. That would be two turns. In ideal conditions an army could March quite far(see the good Lord Baal 'a post below). However the games engine is limited. We need to consider things like storms, encounters with locals(good and bad). In case of a snowstorm sometimes an army might have to camp for a long period. It took 3 months(1 turn) for the Persia army in 480bc to get from the Hellespont into Thermes. Now that was a massive army but it seems not to far off from the distance represented in the mod.

If the M2 traits weren't flawed it could be better represented on a General to General basis. Unfortunately is seems as though an army will move only as far as the unit with the LEAST movement points. I tested a bit last night. My general had huge movement bonuses but as soon as I put a unit with Jim he would only go as far as the other unit and the units movement didn't change with or without the general.

[Lord Baal]

I think I have found and posted info about this before, but what the heck, I'm doing the research again. It would seem that the Romans at it's peak could get around 30 km per day while forcing a march, which translate to 900 km per month, or 2700 km per trimester. Now keep in mind that's the Romans, at it's peak and while forcing a march, which I think would be hard to keep for 3 months in a row. A regular army would move much slower as back in the day most of them didn't have supply trains and/or the logistics the Romans had, and went on mostly foraging, sacking or buying the provisions on the road.

Let's round up the average for both Romans and not romans at 15 km per day, since we can't give specific factions specific velocities (however traits can be given to commanders to modify speed and those traits do can be given depending the faction they are, but let's discuss that latter). With the new number we get something around 1350 km per trimester. This slower rhythm would be equal to walking about 3 hours per day on average human walking speed (5 km/h), or around 7 hours at less than that, it may not seem much but given you where carrying heavy things like weapons and other tools of the trade it seems fair, so let's leave it like that for a moment.

And how much is that? Well: The driving distance from Rome to Paris, France is around 1,437 km, like wise the road to Berlin in Germany from Rome would be a little under 1000 km. This isn't shaping to our expectations of realism isn't? What about Italy itself? Well from the tip of the "boot" to the most northern border it has a distance of around 1200 km. Which would mean that an army "should" cover those distances within a turn. Not as huge as I grossly miscalculated earlier but still a lot.

All of this means that an army on foot could complete a "patrol" around the coast of Italy or go from the tip to the alps and back around 6 times every three months. That would be a nightmare to put in EBII, imagine the horror of Germanic barbarians making all the way down to Italy, or Hispanics attacking the Persians in a single turn... that's just a big no. I was apparently drunk while typing that.

However all this are hypothetical calculations and shaky ones at best. I'm doing this under a few minutes searching over historical forums and a few e-books. Also I'm not taking into account things like the winter in the northern regions that would put short of a complete hold to any campaign or marching during the fierce most winters. I'm also not taking into account the battles, the obligatory stops to forage, resupply, reorganize, wait for further orders and so much other things that could slow down a marching army, also we are assuming a meager march of just 3-7 hours, which could be way longer if pressed to.

As for naval travel, I could gather an average of 200 kms per day on favorable conditions against 70 km under unfavorable conditions, I'm guessing that's when you are sailing with the wind or against the wind respectively and/or good or bad weather. A total average of 130 km per day would give us 11700 km each trimester, or the distance to travel from Lisbon to New York and back again in three months, or given the 38.000 km of coast Europe has, it could allow to travel less than a third of that length.

More on things about travel times on ancient ships here.

[anonimo272]

as expected betwen AI factions wars theres no big odd stuff happening
tought theres 2 strange events that concern me, but please the sample is still small (only 2 test campaigns an 60 turns)
the first the iberian tribes seem eager to conquer in france, even the lusitans i believe it's because of the small garrisons present there and because of the large armies of the lusitans (but those large armies happened before too tought they weren't so active)
the second i believe it's just a random coincidence, 2 times the indian faction got destroyed early wich by the way makes me sugest to look at SSHIP factions comebacks (not as hordes) they simply reapear on the campaign if some city they controlled initialy revolted

later today or tomorrow i will publish the results with screenshots, but i can say that for now no major changes happened

[paulus]

I checked a few examples, and 450-550km in three months is probably about right for an actual army moving through neutral or hostile territory, in most cases. In home territory, or with access to fleet transport, they could of course move much faster. Small, elite contingents could make that same distance in short order through forced marches, but examples of that are fairly rare. Keep in mind that armies did not generally force march for more than a few days, and preferred not to do it at all. Even under normal marching conditions, armies stopped every several days.

In theory, armies could cover that same distance in a single month, and sometimes even further based on march rates. In practice, they very rarely did so. Our current march rate for a general with no special march abilities and a mixed cavalry/infantry army is probably more like 175km in a month. The limits are related in part because of gameplay concerns. But this is a good thing to experiment with.

[Lord Baal]

Yup, consider also they needed to stay relatively close to fresh water supplies and also get fodder for the beast of burden (if any). Weather, readiness, moral and strategy affected their movement. Also consider one of the main reasons Romans did their road network, the expedite deployment of troops. It could be daring but I would say that 1000 km would be the minimum number for an army with access to roads and good logistics.

For example Alexander's army could routinely move at 20 km a day, and separate cavalry units could cover up to 64 km a day. That would be 1800 km per trimester. Rather conservator against the 7250 km but still simply too much to introduce into EBII.

The only way I can foresee this is by putting int a 12 turns per year (monthly turns submod), in which a maximum of around 600 kms (don't know how much movements points would that be) could be achieved by having roads and the right ancillaries. 600 km would roughly be the distance from Rome to the northern frontier of Cisalpine Gaul.