Time for some constructive critisim

[maurel]

First of all: Good job, its a amazing mod , i love it greatly and it surpassed my expectations. but there are things to fix and things where we can improve.

I am here to criticize the building tree, more specifically the temple system.

We have a 1 temple(1god) per city. where you choose what temple every city will have it. This is completely ahistorical, its like camilian legions with lorica segmentata, and can't be allowed in the final release of the mod.

Here is a small list of some temples in Roma(just to make a point):

Temple to All the Gods, known as the Pantheon - Campus Martius
Temple of Antoninus and Faustina - Roman Forum
Temple of Apollo Palatinus - Palatine Hill
Temple of Apollo Sosianus - Near the Theater of Marcellus
Temple of Bellona (Rome) - Near the Theater of Marcellus
Temple of Bona Dea - Aventine Hill
Temple of Caesar - Roman Forum
Temple of Castor and Pollux - In the Roman Forum
Temple of Concord - Roman Forum at the base of the Capitoline
Temple of Cybele (Magna Mater) - Palatine Hill
Temple of Diana - Aventine Hill
Temple of Divus Augustus behind Basilica Julia
Temple of Hadrian - Campus Martius (Built into Chamber of Commerce building)
Temple of Hercules Victor
Temple of Isis and Serapis - Campus Martius
Temple of Janus (Roman Forum)
Temple of Janus (Forum Holitorium)
Temple of Juno Moneta - Capitoline Hill
Temple of Jupiter (Capitoline Hill) - Capitoline Hill (under Palazzo Conservatori)
Temple of Mars Ultor - Forum of Augustus
Nymphaeum often called (erroneously) a Temple of Minerva Medica, formerly in the Forum Transitorum
Temple of Minerva Medica, named in literary sources but no longer extant
Temple of Peace - Forum of Peace (now mostly covered by Via dei Fori Imperiali)
Temple of Portunus - Near Santa Maria in Cosmedin
Temple of Romulus - Roman Forum
Temple of Saturn - West end of the Roman Forum
Temple of Siriaco - Janiculum Hill
Temple of Venus and Roma - Northeast corner of the Roman Forum
Temple of Venus Genetrix - Forum of Caesar
Temple of Vespasian and Titus
Temple of Vesta - Roman Forum
Temple of Veiovis - Capitoline Hill (Basement of Palazzo Senatorio)


What should we do then ? nerf the temples and allow their construction freely ? i think we can do better.

I suggest keeping the actual system of temples with small nerfs and adding +2 temple lists. every city will have 3 temples (1 main deity, thoses who we have now, 2 smaller deity) the secondary temples will have very smaller bonuses, and specifically bonuses and can be upgranded to level 3 building (small shrine, shrine and temple).

just to make an example for the Romans:

Main god: choose between Jupiter, Juno, Ceres, Mars, Vesta and Minerva.
First secondary god: choose between Proserpine, Vulcan, Pluto, Flora and Neptune
Last Secondary god: choose between Mercury, Cupid, Diana, Gorgon and Bacchus


Why this way ? it will be more historical than the actual system, and at the same time will add some strategy thinking for the player. the secondary temples will add single buffs (ex: temple of Neptune increase experience or increases the building pool of naval units, the temple for Vulcan increases mining, the temple for Bacchus add some happiness).
You will choose what temples to build in what cities, according to your needs or role play.

Either way, just change the actual system and put a more historical one.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Invasio Barbarorum (I think) has the multiple temples enabled, and religions depend on the region, not on factions. Here, as the religion feature is used for culture type (and temples are not directly attached to it...) it is even more possible because it will generate very fiew conflicts and will not make a city unstable because it has more than one type of temples.

Having more than one temple of the same religion could be great also. bonus just have to be tuned a little down.

[Campylobacter jejuni]

Splendid idea. All for it. But what about pantheons? Maybe pantheons could be separate temples only buildable in the bigest kind of city available to the respective culture and give more general boni based on what the culture historically was like.

But then again in the end city building in Total War games is at best an abstraction of the real deal, so we shouldn't concentrate on it too much - of course still a little bit. In that way it could be argued that the single temples actually buildable represent a focus of local worship. The real circumsstances could be explained in the building description (maybe they already are).

[maurel]

Note: to make the temples organized so we will not have a temple orgy in the settlement building lists.:

1- main god temple choices.
2- you build a main god temple. it unlocks level 2 of that temple and the primary secondary god's temple choices.
3- you choose and build the first secondary god temple. it unlock level 2 for that temple and unlocks the secundary secundary god temple choices.
4- you build the secundary secundary temple and unlocks level 2 for that temple

[maurel]

here some gods:

Romans: Varro gives a list of twenty principal gods of Roman religion:
Janus
Jupiter
Saturn
Genius
Mercury
Apollo
Mars
Vulcan
Neptune
Sol
Orcus
Liber
Tellus
Ceres
Juno
Luna
Diana
Minerva
Venus
Vesta

Varro, who was himself of Sabine origin, gives a list of Sabine gods who were adopted by the Romans:

Feronia
Minerva
Novensides
Pales
Salus
Fortuna
Fons
Fides[9]
Ops
Flora
Vediovis
Saturn
Sol
Luna
Vulcan
Summanus
Larunda
Terminus
Quirinus
Vortumnus
Lares
Diana
Lucina

Some gods from celtic culture:

Gaulish and Brythonic deities

Abandinus, possibly a river-god
Abellio (Abelio, Abelionni), god of apple trees
Alaunus (Fin), god of healing and prophecy
Alisanos (Alisaunus)
Ambisagrus, a god of thunder and lightning
Anextiomarus (Anextlomarus, Anextlomara), a protector god
Ankou, a god of death
Atepomarus, a horse god
Arvernus, a tribal god
Arausio, a god of water
Barinthus (Manannán mac Lir), a god of the sea and water
Belatucadros, a god of war
Belenus, a god of healing.
Borvo (Bormo, Bormanus), a god of mineral and hot springs
Borrum, a god of the winds.
Buxenus, a god of box trees
Camulus (Camulus, Camalos), a god of war and sky
Canetonnessis
Cernunnos
Cicolluis god of Celtic army
Cimbrianus
Cissonius (Cisonius, Cesonius), a god of trade
Mars Cnabetius, a god of war[1]
Cocidius, a god of war
Condatis, a god of the confluences of rivers
Contrebis (Contrebis, Contrebus), a god of a city
Dii Casses god of refuse
Dis Pater (Dispater), a god of the underworld
Esus (Hesus)
Fagus, a god of beech trees
Genii Cucullati, Hooded Spirits
Grannus, a god of healing and mineral springs
Icaunus, a god of a river
Intarabus
Iovantucarus, a protector of youth
Lenus, a healing god
Leucetios (Leucetius), a god of thunder
Lugus, creation and learning
Luxovius (Luxovius), a god of a city's water
Maponos (Maponus), a god of youth
Mogons (Moguns)
Moritasgus, a healing badger god
Mullo
Nemausus, a god worshipped at Nîmes
Nerius
Nodens (Nudens, Nodons), a god of healing, the sea, hunting and dogs
Ogmios
Robor, a god of oak trees
Rudianos, a god of war
Segomo, a god of war
Smertrios (Smertios, Smertrius), a god of war
Sucellos (Sucellus, Sucellos), a god of love and time
Taranis, a god of thunder
Toutatis (Caturix, Teutates), a tribal god
Tridamos bovine triplication and abundance
Veteris (Vitiris, Vheteris, Huetiris, Hueteris)
Virotutis
Visucius
Vindonnus, a hunting and healing god
Vinotonus
Vosegus, a god of the Vosges Mountains


Abnoba, a goddess of rivers and forests
Adsullata, goddess of the River Savubalabada
Aericura
Agrona, a goddess of war
Ancamna, a water goddess
Ancasta, goddess of the River Itchen
Andarta, a goddess of war
Andraste, goddess of victory
Arduinna, goddess of the Ardennes Forest
Aufaniae
Arnemetia, a water goddess
Artio, goddess of the bear
Aventia
Aveta, a mother goddess, associated with the fresh-water spring at Trier, in what is now Germany
Belisama, lakes and rivers, fire, crafts and light, consort of Belenus
Brigantia
Britannia, originally a personification of the island, later made into a goddess
Camma
Campestres
Clota, patron goddess of the River Clyde
Coventina, goddess of wells and springs
Damara, a fertility goddess
Damona, consort of Apollo Borvo and of Apollo Moritasgus
Dea Matrona, "divine mother goddess" and goddess of the River Marne in Gaul
Dea Sequana, goddess of the River Seine
Debranua, a goddess of speed and fat
Epona, fertility goddess, protector of horses, donkeys, and mules
Erecura, earth goddess
Icovellauna, a water goddess
Litavis
Mairiae
Nantosuelta, goddess of nature, the earth, fire, and fertility in Gaul
Nemetona
Ritona (Pritona), goddess of fords
Rosmerta, goddess of fertility and abundance
Sabrina, goddess of the River Severn
Senua
Sequana, goddess of the River Seine
Sirona, goddess of healing
Suleviae, a triune version of Sulis
Sulis, a solar nourishing, life-giving goddess and an agent of curses
Tamesisaddas, goddess of the River Thames
Verbeia, goddess of the River Wharfe

Greek gods:

Olympians
Zeus Hera Hermes Ares Aphrodite Apollo Artemis Athena Demeter Dionysus Hephaestus Hestia Poseidon
Primordial deities
Aether Chaos Cronus Erebus Eros Uranus Gaia Tartarus Hemera Nyx
Lesser gods
Hebe Hecate Helios Selene Eos Herakles Iris Nike Pan Pandia

[Ballpoint202]

here some gods:

Romans: Varro gives a list of twenty principal gods of Roman religion:
Janus
Jupiter
Saturn
Genius
Mercury
Apollo
Mars
Vulcan
Neptune
Sol
Orcus
Liber
Tellus
Ceres
Juno
Luna
Diana
Minerva
Venus
Vesta

Varro, who was himself of Sabine origin, gives a list of Sabine gods who were adopted by the Romans:

Feronia
Minerva
Novensides
Pales
Salus
Fortuna
Fons
Fides[9]
Ops
Flora
Vediovis
Saturn
Sol
Luna
Vulcan
Summanus
Larunda
Terminus
Quirinus
Vortumnus
Lares
Diana
Lucina

Some gods from celtic culture:

Gaulish and Brythonic deities

Abandinus, possibly a river-god
Abellio (Abelio, Abelionni), god of apple trees
Alaunus (Fin), god of healing and prophecy
Alisanos (Alisaunus)
Ambisagrus, a god of thunder and lightning
Anextiomarus (Anextlomarus, Anextlomara), a protector god
Ankou, a god of death
Atepomarus, a horse god
Arvernus, a tribal god
Arausio, a god of water
Barinthus (Manannán mac Lir), a god of the sea and water
Belatucadros, a god of war
Belenus, a god of healing.
Borvo (Bormo, Bormanus), a god of mineral and hot springs
Borrum, a god of the winds.
Buxenus, a god of box trees
Camulus (Camulus, Camalos), a god of war and sky
Canetonnessis
Cernunnos
Cicolluis god of Celtic army
Cimbrianus
Cissonius (Cisonius, Cesonius), a god of trade
Mars Cnabetius, a god of war[1]
Cocidius, a god of war
Condatis, a god of the confluences of rivers
Contrebis (Contrebis, Contrebus), a god of a city
Dii Casses god of refuse
Dis Pater (Dispater), a god of the underworld
Esus (Hesus)
Fagus, a god of beech trees
Genii Cucullati, Hooded Spirits
Grannus, a god of healing and mineral springs
Icaunus, a god of a river
Intarabus
Iovantucarus, a protector of youth
Lenus, a healing god
Leucetios (Leucetius), a god of thunder
Lugus, creation and learning
Luxovius (Luxovius), a god of a city's water
Maponos (Maponus), a god of youth
Mogons (Moguns)
Moritasgus, a healing badger god
Mullo
Nemausus, a god worshipped at Nîmes
Nerius
Nodens (Nudens, Nodons), a god of healing, the sea, hunting and dogs
Ogmios
Robor, a god of oak trees
Rudianos, a god of war
Segomo, a god of war
Smertrios (Smertios, Smertrius), a god of war
Sucellos (Sucellus, Sucellos), a god of love and time
Taranis, a god of thunder
Toutatis (Caturix, Teutates), a tribal god
Tridamos bovine triplication and abundance
Veteris (Vitiris, Vheteris, Huetiris, Hueteris)
Virotutis
Visucius
Vindonnus, a hunting and healing god
Vinotonus
Vosegus, a god of the Vosges Mountains


Abnoba, a goddess of rivers and forests
Adsullata, goddess of the River Savubalabada
Aericura
Agrona, a goddess of war
Ancamna, a water goddess
Ancasta, goddess of the River Itchen
Andarta, a goddess of war
Andraste, goddess of victory
Arduinna, goddess of the Ardennes Forest
Aufaniae
Arnemetia, a water goddess
Artio, goddess of the bear
Aventia
Aveta, a mother goddess, associated with the fresh-water spring at Trier, in what is now Germany
Belisama, lakes and rivers, fire, crafts and light, consort of Belenus
Brigantia
Britannia, originally a personification of the island, later made into a goddess
Camma
Campestres
Clota, patron goddess of the River Clyde
Coventina, goddess of wells and springs
Damara, a fertility goddess
Damona, consort of Apollo Borvo and of Apollo Moritasgus
Dea Matrona, "divine mother goddess" and goddess of the River Marne in Gaul
Dea Sequana, goddess of the River Seine
Debranua, a goddess of speed and fat
Epona, fertility goddess, protector of horses, donkeys, and mules
Erecura, earth goddess
Icovellauna, a water goddess
Litavis
Mairiae
Nantosuelta, goddess of nature, the earth, fire, and fertility in Gaul
Nemetona
Ritona (Pritona), goddess of fords
Rosmerta, goddess of fertility and abundance
Sabrina, goddess of the River Severn
Senua
Sequana, goddess of the River Seine
Sirona, goddess of healing
Suleviae, a triune version of Sulis
Sulis, a solar nourishing, life-giving goddess and an agent of curses
Tamesisaddas, goddess of the River Thames
Verbeia, goddess of the River Wharfe

Greek gods:

Olympians
Zeus Hera Hermes Ares Aphrodite Apollo Artemis Athena Demeter Dionysus Hephaestus Hestia Poseidon
Primordial deities
Aether Chaos Cronus Erebus Eros Uranus Gaia Tartarus Hemera Nyx
Lesser gods
Hebe Hecate Helios Selene Eos Herakles Iris Nike Pan Pandia

Quite a list -- and it's only partial. So any system (including the OP's well-thought out one) will be a radical abstraction and not truly "historical". Which means, IMHO, that justifying a change requires different reasons than ahistoricity or excessive abstraction.

Just my opinion.

[maurel]

I wish there are monuments, very costly and time consuming buildings with small global buffs (its possible in ME2 engine)

[Iaius Statius Laurentius]

There are already a ton of buildings. Adding secondary temples would balloon that, and I don't know if the benefit is worth it. It's basically a gameplay abstraction anyway -- there isn't just one road, school, and theatre on a big city either. Consider it more which patron deity the city has: what local cult the city is famous for.

As for Invasio Barbarorum, it's on RTW:BI where religion is set by province, building, and leaders. In M2TW, factions have a set religion which can only change via scripting (which EB 2 uses to approximate changes in government type). Temples cannot change religion; their conversion factor is for whatever the religion if the faction is.

[MagicCuboid]

Maurel, that would be a very elegant solution. It'd take a very organized thinker to implement in the EDB, but 100% doable . I'm all for these ideas. +rep

[maurel]

Maurel, that would be a very elegant solution. It'd take a very organized thinker to implement in the EDB, but 100% doable . I'm all for these ideas. +rep

thank you sir.

[maurel]

Immersion ? building 1 temple per city kinda gives me a "Monotheist feeling" having to build more temples and be able to choose between more deities would kinda help to make things more likely they where in that time and give a "Polytheist Feeling".
Big cities like Roma had a lot of temples. but smaller or medium cities would have a lot of shrines and 2 to 3 temples (increasing the number of temples as the population size grew).

and... 3 temples are more historical accurate than 1 temple.

[Sint]

Ever thought that it's just the main city temple/god and the other ones are minor and still there just not buildable....?
And I think the Eb team already knowsthe names of all of these "gods"...

[maurel]

Ever thought that it's just the main city temple/god and the other ones are minor and still there just not buildable....?
And I think the Eb team already knowsthe names of all of these "gods"...

Ever thought that we could represent the romans as greeks because they look alike and creating another culture for romans is a waste of culture slots ?
Ever thought that we could add lorica segementata to imperial legions because a minor percentage of them used in the timeline ?

EB aims for historical accuracy in all aspects of the game (unless something is game breaking). for this reason many things where added and many things negated. In this situation (the temple system) you are keeping something totally ahistorical instead of trying to change to a less ahistorical system just because you prefer that way.

[Moros]

The difficulty lies in the fact that all factions share temple buildings. It was difficult enough to find gods to fit a certain amount of temples. It already proved to be impossible for some.
These are abstractions and represent the most popular deity of the province. However that is not to say your idea does not have merit. It however shouldn't be a top of the list when it comes to priorities.
If it shouldn't make it in, everyone is free to make their own submods. Which if they prove popular, balanced and historical might even get implemented into the main mod, if permission would be granted.

In the future, not in a hotfix, the building trees are likely to be expanded on, but in this version our intention was first to implement and test the most necessary of game mechanics. I think, considering the amount of current buildings that are alrady in, we did already do more than that.

[maurel]

i don't ask for priority, just that you guys take some time to give a look at it when you have time. all we want is a even better EB2.

And expanded building trees ? awesome ! will we have buildings that gives global effects ?

[Moros]

i don't ask for priority, just that you guys take some time to give a look at it when you have time. all we want is a even better EB2.

And expanded building trees ? awesome ! will we have buildings that gives global effects ?

I don't know yet what is planned. I have my own ideas, like anyone on the team. We will have to make discussions on this issue. What works for the Arabians, doesn't necessarily work for the Romans or Greeks.

[maurel]

I don't know yet what is planned. I have my own ideas, like anyone on the team. We will have to make discussions on this issue. What works for the Arabians, doesn't necessarily work for the Romans or Greeks.

If i may so, i want you all to consider de following concepts:

Capital buildings (buildings you can only build at your capital and are destroyed once your change your capital or it is captured): don't matter what faction you are talking abbout, all of them had some kind of administrative center after they expanded, where they administrate their kindgom/empire/republic. Thoses buildings will have global effects (not only in your capital but at your empire) some capital buildings could enchance the capital, giving growth(so the capital can be the biggest city of the faction) and more tax/trade and etc. i don't known if its possibly but if it is. it would be historical and cool as hell.


Last tier building list: this is a idea to enhance gameplay, a problem in EB1 is after some time of game, you will have a lot of core cities at max level without buildings to build (and so kinda boring) and you sit upon a good amount of money, the idea to change this is to add a building list only unlock able after the city is in its last level (and it would take a lot of time for this to happen in EB2) this building list will be design to take a hell lot of time to build (something like 20 or 30 seasons) cost a lot of money and give minor benefits like :
+1 experience to troops trained here
increase trade goods
Increase tax rate

and etc...

and the last concept abbout the temples is: i want multiple temples, but without losing strategy thinking and city customization like in the actual system. that is why i gave the 3 temples major/minor/minor god with 3 temple lists for every faction.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

The problem is : we are all formated by rtw and miitw when thinking about gameplay, even though we all love EB because it tries to detatch itself from that.

I never had the idea of multiple temple before playing IB and I felt that it was just genius, because precisely it is off the chart but has completely it's purpose.

I think it is great when things like that are accomplished, it shows how we are able to think without having to stick to vanilla.

Like those pigs, or "copy of legionary" or dogs units from vanilla. It was difficult for some people to consider that EB will never integrate them in the game. Or multiple roman factions. "Vanilla does it like that, why not EB ? "

I say because EB is not about following the bad example. It is about showing how it's some properly.

[Cyclops]

Most "buildings" in the settlements don't represent one building (aside form some wonders), more institutions. I think its about where the state puts its religious chips down. I think the Senate was interested in Jupiter as head of the pantheon of Roman Gods with the attendant ideolgical benefits ("this one favours us"), and he's a natural fit for Roma. I think many emperors went with that too.

Private citizens could honour many gods but this is about where the society says "this is top God".

If you're allowing multiple "temples" I guess you're saying the state could be backing a few different ideologies (and I agree that makes sense, Ancient Egypt had important cults, and the city states had their various state deities that a conqueror would be smart to alllow/support).

Maybe if you go for one temple you can build it to the highest tier but if you take several then they only go to tier one? So diverse investment doesn't allow maximising any of them?

Also IIRC there was some angst in Rome when new cults were introduced: Christians were blamed for everything, and Magna Mater was viewed with deep suspicion. Perhaps there should be an order penalty if the state sponsors too much religious diversity in once city (ie each extra temple has an [piublic order penalty, so in game terms you'd only build extra temples for the ancillaries/other bonuses, not public order).

[Mayer]

multiple temples sounds like a great idea

Rome allowed free exercise of various cults unless they were a threat to its order like judaism/christianity