EB 2.X AI Faction Progression Thread

[mr mojo risin]

Because I find the unaugmented mid/late game of a handful of super-factions sending stack after stack at each other boring in the extreme. I like variety and as many AI factions still at work as possible, even if some of them have to be changed into something else in another region. A faction dead is a little bit of the game's potential gone, and a lot less fun. Holding the balance of power is more fun to me than simply dominating all the other factions, and maintaining the chaos is more fun than having a conflict concluded.

The sweet spot for me is having 10 or less provinces and 2-3 armies defending those regions, fighting no more than a couple of battles a year during distinct periods of war, and no battles in peace times. A sprawling empire of 30-odd provinces, where administering them becomes a routine chore and fighting 2-3 full stack on full stack battles every single turn isn't my idea of fun.

yes indeed.

[Shokifer]

Bleh. Micromanaging other factions just seems so boring. I don't WANT to be in control of everything. That's why I like starting as a faction at the edge of the map (like saba or the pritanoi) and then coming to promenence and see what the other factions turned out as. Besides, I just increase unit replenishment times so i'll only have to fight armies they currently have. Balance is fine, but balance the player has to maintain just seems silly.

The only time I intervened was when the amount of stacks was getting debilitating in EB1, and that sort of required plunging the lusitanians or qart-hadast into debt.

[TheVerySpecialK]

Campaign as Bosporus at turn 195:



Although Carthage lost its Iberian and Sicilian possessions early on, it went on to dominate the Ptolemaic Empire to the East (which now only holds a single territory). Macedon has also grown exponentially, destroying Greece, Pontos and Pergamon, while reducing Eperios to a mere client state. The situation in the North East has remained static for many turns now, with Pahlava and Saka retaining their respective territories. The Seleucid Empire has also retained its territories while emerging as victor and the dominant power in Anatolia after a long war with the Ptolemaic Empire. The Germans have grown exceptionally strong, forcing the Boii to flee Eastward (where they became a client state under the Getai. Iberia has been dominated by the Areuakoi, who are now contesting for control of the peninsula with Rome and the Gaelic kingdoms.

Edit: Crete and Rhodes are both colonies of my kingdom.

Because I find the unaugmented mid/late game of a handful of super-factions sending stack after stack at each other boring in the extreme. I like variety and as many AI factions still at work as possible, even if some of them have to be changed into something else in another region. A faction dead is a little bit of the game's potential gone, and a lot less fun. Holding the balance of power is more fun to me than simply dominating all the other factions, and maintaining the chaos is more fun than having a conflict concluded.

The sweet spot for me is having 10 or less provinces and 2-3 armies defending those regions, fighting no more than a couple of battles a year during distinct periods of war, and no battles in peace times. A sprawling empire of 30-odd provinces, where administering them becomes a routine chore and fighting 2-3 full stack on full stack battles every single turn isn't my idea of fun.

Couldn't agree more!

[mr mojo risin]

Campaign as Bosporus at turn 195:



Although Carthage lost its Iberian and Sicilian possessions early on, it went on to dominate the Ptolemaic Empire to the East (which now only holds a single territory). Macedon has also grown exponentially, destroying Greece, Pontos and Pergamon, while reducing Eperios to a mere client state. The situation in the North East has remained static for many turns now, with Pahlava and Saka retaining their respective territories. The Seleucid Empire has also retained its territories while emerging as victor and the dominant power in Anatolia after a long war with the Ptolemaic Empire. The Germans have grown exceptionally strong, forcing the Boii to flee Eastward (where they became a client state under the Getai. Iberia has been dominated by the Areuakoi, who are now contesting for control of the peninsula with Rome and the Gaelic kingdoms.

Edit: Crete and Rhodes are both colonies of my kingdom.



Couldn't agree more!

Cheers for the feedback...version 3 CAI is shaping up very nicely.iv solved quite a few things today,

[Kull]

Here's a technique the EB2 playtesters used to show faction "progress on the map" over time - a .gif file showing sequential views of the campaign mini-map in the lower left-hand corner. Here's an example from a 100 turn Lusotannan game last December:


A few things you'll need to know/consider:

1) Decide what a good sequence consists of. My snapshots are taken at 10-turn increments, but you could use some other number - it's best if the interval is consistent, however.

2) You will want to see EVERYTHING happening on the map, so first bring up the console (press the ~ key) and type in toggle_fow. This makes all factions visible on the minimap (and everywhere else).

3) The easiest way to grab the screenshot is (while playing in "windowed mode") to use the Windows "Snipping Tool" (Start/All Programs/Accessories/Snipping Tool). Just drag the cursor around the minimap and "save as" to a folder (file type should default to .jpg) And make sure to use a recognizable name (like "KH_turn_10") so you can easily identify the sequence later:


4) After you've played long enough to accumulate quite a few screenshots, it's time to create the .gif file.

5) GIFMaker is by far the easiest way to do that. It's a website, so there's no need to install any software or run a specialized program. After clicking the GIFMaker link, it brings you to this screen:


6) As per the attachment below, click the "Upload Images" button first (circled in red). That will bring up an explorer-like interface. Navigate to the folder containing your screen shots. Click the first one and then - while pressing the Ctrl key - click all the other screenshots you'll need for the .gif. When you are finished selecting files, click the "Open" button (also circled in red):


7) You'll see a visual of the text file names uploading to the website, after which they will all appear as thumbnails (below). In the "Control Panel" at the upper right you can already see the gif action taking place. If any of your screen shots are out of sequence, just drag the thumbnails into the proper sequence. The "Canvas size" settings are fine, but please change the "Animation speed" to "2000" (circled in red), so people have time to recognize what's going on as the factions grow and shrink. Once that is done, click the "Create Now" button (also circled in red). Three new options now appear below the "Create Now" button. Select "Download the GIF image now" (circled in red), click "Save" in the resulting message box, and then (when the explorer-like interface appears) navigate to the folder containing your screen shots and give it an appropriate file name.


8) Your new .gif file can be uploaded to IMGUR (like the one in this post) or posted at some other location of your choice.

Congratulations - you are now a .gif making expert!

[anonimo272]

kull. is there any way to do this while on full screen ?
mr mojo will the new CAI be released with the control script or it is still too soon ?

[mr mojo risin]

kull. is there any way to do this while on full screen ?
mr mojo will the new CAI be released with the control script or it is still too soon ?

it will be released without any scripts at this point ,
the thing is to get the best possible base to build on before any file changes.hope to have version 3 out by the weekend.

[Henri]

Ran an Epeiros game H/M v2ai and decided to throw all my eggs in one basket and blitz Rome.

50 turns in :


102 turns :


150 turns:


201 turns:


Some things I noticed along the way:
1. The AI has real problems with the forts ~ it either parks units in there and wont move them ever or they do a step/step out loop each turn.
2. Stacks rebelling really breaks down AI attacks ~ they'll be pushing hard towards a city, a stack rebels and they just sit there for a few turns then go and do something else.
3. the AI is really too fond of vassalising its enemies ~ wars will just stop with a 4-5 stacks on each side while a diplomat approaches the remaining city each turn.

[mr mojo risin]

VERSION 3 CAI released....http://ge.tt/9QsnMVv1/v/0

An evolution from version 2 to version 3......the op will be updated soon.
please leave feedback on AI aggression, faction development and diplomacy.ta

PLEASE START A NEW CAMPAIGN {it may be save compatible for some}

select Med or Hard campaign difficulty.

[malibu.stacey]

Thanks you very much, mr!

Gonna try asap

[Dom Pedro II]

Great work mojo, too bad i can't try it myself atm, do you have any progression pictures to share? i.e late campaign.

[mr mojo risin]

Great work mojo, too bad i can't try it myself atm, do you have any progression pictures to share? i.e late campaign.

no ...iv had real trouble posting and editing on here for while now, im sure there will be some soon though.

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

Neat site, Kull. I just used it for mine to make a gif.

Playing as Baktria H/H here, I thought I'd post this just because I found the progression around Italy / Europe interesting. Namely, Rome was completely wiped out in my game by Carthage and Arverni.

This gif is 3 images each from 237 / 224 / 213 BC. Rome is attacked from the south by Carthage, which captures Roma itself, and Arverni come in from the north and end up turning Rome into a protectorate. Sweboz then moved in and finished off Rome as Arverni pushes back at Carthage to take most of Italy and Iberia.

[alin]

Sweboz, VH/H:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[mr mojo risin]

Sweboz, VH/H:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

your thoughts on the campaign alin? looks like you blitzed quite fast at the start.

[Shadowwalker]

Version:
EB 2.03a+Colony Hotfix

Faction:
Sab'Yn

Difficulty:
H/M

Personal changes:
Debt Help for AI factions decreased from 15k to 11k
Eleutheroi Kings Purse decreased to 75k
Eleutheroi starting money decreased to 15k

[The decreased money help was the result of a first EB 2.03a campaign as Hayasdan where the Seleukids suddenly had about 25+ stacks and several factions (aside the known "problem childs" like Pergamon, Pontos etc) never got around to conquer a second province. I can say though that my changes didn't have any significant effect so I will return to the original settings for the next campaign.

First off, the visuals (I took a screenshot every twenty turns, last screenshot was taken at 260 turns)
:


Then, some general feedback about EB 2.03a. Not exactly the right place for that, I know.

Graphics: I love the new factions colours and minimap. I love love love it!

Gameplay (campaign): 2.03a is - generally spoken - a definite, significant improvement in regards to the campaign AI. Some things that stand out in a positive or negative way I'd like to mention, though:

(1) The fact that the AI always retreats when a settlement is attacked (regardless if the attacker is another Ai or the player) unless the field army is exactly next to the settlement is annoying at best. I have no idea if this is fixable at all, though.

(2) If you play a faction that has access to ports you should either make sure to ally with every other seafaring faction (hardly possible) or prepare to be "attacked" (as in: your port gets blockaded) for no reason, just because that faction at the other side of the sea built a ship. I had my ports blockaded by Areuakoi and Aruernoi for example. Although I have to admit that this doesn't happen that frequently anymore, compared to earlier versions of EB 2.
And after all, it's rather annoying, but not at all gamebreaking, especially since ....

(3) The AI almost exclusively allies to the player faction. In the campaign above Saba was at turn 260 allied to Taksashila, Massylia, Sweboz, the Bosphoran Greeks, Makedonia and the Saka. I could have been allied to virtually everyone, though, since all factions approached me at some point to offer an alliance. AI-AI alliances I remember only two: Saka - Pahlava and Pahlava - Sauromatae. There was not even a Rome - Pergamon alliance.

(4) The AI is possibly still too "friendly" towards the player faction. Don't get me wrong - the last thing I want to see is the return of the RTW AI that was annoyingly predictable: you share a border, you are attacked. But I was never attacked (the port blockading I don't count here ) in all those 260 turns. The Nabataeans never tried to attack Dedan (although they had at some point 3 full stacks near the boarder and Dedan was defended by 4 units only), The Ptolemaioi never attacked, neither did the Seleukids (although Gerrha would have been easy prey).

(5) Some diplomacy actions are much too easily successful - especially buying settlements. I bought Ptolemais-Akko and Bostra from the Seleukids (for 12k each) and Ptolemais-Theron from the Ptolemaioi for 10k. It's of course nice to expand without a war (especially as Saba against those two superpowers who field units you simply cannot match in the early game). But it should not be that easy/cheap in my opinion.

(6) The new money script is not that bad, but not really good either, to be honest. In comparison to EB 2.02x there are a lot more AI stacks around. I have no idea about the reasons, though.

(7) The new stat/cost system is so much more reasonable than the old one. Love it.

Gameplay (battles): One word - superb. I rarely encountered cohesion problems, the AI is a way more capable opponent than before. I never saw a general suicide charge into amassed ranks of spearmen, for example. Sometimes it's even frighteningly clever. If you are outflanked by cavalry (which the Sabaeans lack completely as long as they don't get up to the coast of the Mediterranean Sea where mercs are available) and then charged by Hetairoi from both sides at the same time .... priceless Almost costed me my faction heir and a full stack designated to take Alexandreia. Thank god (aka Quintus Sertorius ) that the "frighten enemy infantry" attribute was removed from the cavalry. Otherwise my whole army would have fled, I'm sure. One of the best battle experiences I ever had in any TW game.

Okay, enough general rambling, onto the campaign above.

What I especially loved about this campaign is the fact that I had serious money problems until about turn 200. Even when owning the whole peninsula you only make a couple thousnad mnai per turn. And this is with only 3-5 units per settlement (even Gerrha and Dedan were never defended by larger garrisons) and no field army.
Once I conquered the Ptolies and as a result made Dedan the capital this radically changed, of course.

What I don't really like is the fact that except the south arabian provinces (plus Mleiha and Dedan) you cannot raise your culture and establish anything else than Allied governments as the Saba, because they need their factional governments to have their temples of Almagah raise the culture, and they need a certain culture level to establish the factional government.

In case of Qarnawu it is tedious but doable:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You start with 20% "Eastern Tribal States (ETS)" culture. The missing 5% (you need 25% ETS to establish the "Aqib" government) you can get within about 120 turns, although you have to refrain from building ANY temples of Almagah in any province until you can build the lowest factional government in Qarnawu. If you don't follow this advice, the culture of the Saba empire at some point changes to "Eastern Imperial (EI)"and Qarnawu suddenly needs additional ~20% of that EA culture to build the "Aqib" government. And since Qarnawu is your (potentially) richest province and needs to be upgraded with 2nd level mines and port patrol to provide you the money for any real expansion that would mean a delay of another 480 turns before you can even think about looking beyond South/East Arabia.

But Bostra and Axum have not changed a single percent - and looking at the maps above you can see that I own them for quite some time already.

Seleukids are apparently on their way back to once again become the feared Grey Death. They seem unstoppable by AI factions. Same goes for Rome - but only until they meet the Areuakoi and/or Lusotannan. Both are still Rome's Nemesis.

EDIT: Reading Sylons post above reminded me of something I'd like to propose: It's probably a smart move to remove the "AI governor" trait - or more exactly level 2 and 3 of that trait. It gives such a high happiness/public order/law/whatever bonus, that a single FM (wihtout any garrison) is enough to keep far away provinces in check. In the campaign above no roman province ever rebelled and no Seleukid province rebelled, either (except Tarsos at turn 2 or 3). More rebellious outer provinces would prevent superpowers for a longer time or at least force the AI to leave garrisons behind, preventing them from blitzing each other (sea Bosphorans blitz against the Sauromatae or Romes blitz against the Aedui/Aruernoi).

The Nabataeans didn't horde, by the way, nor had I anything to do with their vanishment. I suspect that all their family members fell to Ptolemaioi assassins since I often saw yellow assassins attack a Nabatu FM. And then at one point they suddenly went rebel.

The Carthaginians have in all campaigns since EB 2.02 lost to the Massylians. Once or twice (in 2.02) they were winning first but fell to the Horde, but now they are always attacked around turn 30-50 and lose their possessions one by one. I wonder what happens there, as their units are way superiour to the Massylia skirmisher army and their economy should be way superiour, too....

To have a handful of superpowers and half a dozen extinct factions by turn 260 sounds a bit too fast for my liking. May have something to do with my money changes, though. I'll test that again (if I have time, that is ).

Okay to prevent that post from becoming another wall of text, I'll stop here.


tl;dr: Nice progress, fun campaign.

[anonimo272]

allin did you use the 3rd CAI or it's another internal AI ?
pergamon expanded in your campaign, tought the parthians seem to shy

[alin]

your thoughts on the campaign alin? looks like you blitzed quite fast at the start.

Well that's how I play as I don't enjoy fighting for ages against the same factions.
Also the AI was quite passive at start which made it easier for me.

allin did you use the 3rd CAI or it's another internal AI ?
pergamon expanded in your campaign, tought the parthians seem to shy

It was the one from release day till arround 255BC and afterwards CAI v1.

[mr mojo risin]

Well that's how I play as I don't enjoy fighting for ages against the same factions.
Also the AI was quite passive at start which made it easier for me.


It was the one from release day till arround 255BC and afterwards CAI v1.

cool thanks for verifying.

[Poppis]

Started a new campaign as Romani.

Campaign/Battle difficulty:
Hard/Medium
version 2.01
with latest CAI and BAI versions

Turn 50


Turn 100


All factions are still alive.
Made peace with Epeiros after taking Taras.
Took Messana in 264 BC, starting the punic war, but Garthage had his hands full in Africa and didn't attack at all.

Military Rankings:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Top five
1. Seleucids
2. Ptolemy
3. Aruernoi
4. Makedonia
5. Garthage