How does culture spread?

[delra]

Apparently. Try it, doesn't take long to rebuild the govt.

[QuintusSertorius]

Alright, with some judicious use of process_cq I switched to a military one, which opened up a load more options, but I still can't see how to get a Hellenistic Polis in Syrakousai. I need a Market (which I have) and a higher form of military government which I don't have the option of building. I like the new complexity in settlement development, but it really isn't clear how you get to where you want to go.

[Nicov55]

This is what if figured out playing as Egypt. It was really slow and hard to spread the hellenic culture at the beginning but after conquering Greece and Macedon i was able to upgrade most of my settlements with Polis, Metropilis and even implement an helenic colony in Ptolemais Theron. So i guess that the largest the proportion of your own culture's population is (add the whole of Greece + Macedon), the faster you can build hellenic structures in other areas. Just like if people were moving from Greece to Egypt.

[QuintusSertorius]

This is what if figured out playing as Egypt. It was really slow and hard to spread the hellenic culture at the beginning but after conquering Greece and Macedon i was able to upgrade most of my settlements with Polis, Metropilis and even implement an helenic colony in Ptolemais Theron. So i guess that the largest the proportion of your own culture's population is (add the whole of Greece + Macedon), the faster you can build hellenic structures in other areas. Just like if people were moving from Greece to Egypt.

What doesn't make sense is that Syrakousai is already Greek, it has 70% Hellenistic Polities, but no Polis building at all. Before I conquered it, it had an Independent Polis building, and I think that should have been replaced by a Polis building (that happened in Massalia and Emporion, two Greek settlements I took in another game). Not sure if that's just something that went wrong.

[aapjes]

What doesn't make sense is that Syrakousai is already Greek, it has 70% Hellenistic Polities, but no Polis building at all. Before I conquered it, it had an Independent Polis building, and I think that should have been replaced by a Polis building (that happened in Massalia and Emporion, two Greek settlements I took in another game). Not sure if that's just something that went wrong.

I would think that Syracuse not having a polis already is a bug, but to build a polis you first need a minor polis which in my experience requires a group of colonists. You get colonists every 16 turns you own a metropolis so a lot of hellenic factions actually can't build polises and settler outposts at first.

[Nicov55]

What would be nice is a Building progression tree with explanations or the conditions to upgrade it. It remains a bit obscure. For example, i upgraded military administration to "supervised native administration" in my provinces upper Egypt and i wonder if i did right and will ever be able to install greek settlers there or if it will always remain like this.

[Nicov55]

Same for me when i conquered it. All colonial buildings seem to have been destroyed. However, i was able to build a polis a few turns later.

[QuintusSertorius]

Same for me when i conquered it. All colonial buildings seem to have been destroyed. However, i was able to build a polis a few turns later.

Alright, I'll keep an eye out and see if it changes. I was about to give up on my migrated Syrakousai game altogether.

[Ballpoint202]

What doesn't make sense is that Syrakousai is already Greek, it has 70% Hellenistic Polities, but no Polis building at all. Before I conquered it, it had an Independent Polis building, and I think that should have been replaced by a Polis building (that happened in Massalia and Emporion, two Greek settlements I took in another game). Not sure if that's just something that went wrong.

Syracuse begins as a rebel city, with a "rebel" type of "Free City" government -- maybe that's why you can't keep the Polis?

As you say, to build the Polis you need Native Administration type of govt. Here are the EDB descriptions -- maybe these will help:

;Laarchia (Native Administration)
epeiros3 city requires factions { f_epeiros, } and not building_present govallied and not building_present colony_hellenistic and not building_present_min_level hinterland_hellenistic_polis polis_two and hidden_resource eastern or hidden_resource baktria or hidden_resource anatolian or hidden_resource egypt or hidden_resource caucasus or hidden_resource daha or hidden_resource dacia or hidden_resource illyria
{
capability ;;; enables native colonization, recruitment: 8 * 0.03 comes from the first level of Eastern colony
{
trade_level_bonus bonus -1 requires factions { f_epeiros, }
happiness_bonus bonus 3 requires factions { f_epeiros, }
recruitment_slots 1 requires factions { f_epeiros, } and not event_counter ecWinter 1
recruitment_slots 3 requires factions { f_epeiros, } and event_counter ecWinter 1
}
material stone
construction 4
cost 3200
settlement_min town
upgrades
{
epeiros4
epeiros5
epeiros6
}

building hinterland_hellenistic_polis
{
levels polis_one polis_two polis_three
{
polis_one requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, } and building_present_min_level market market_one and not building_present_min_level colony_eastern eastcol_two and region_religion rel_h 29 and event_counter ecMakedoniaColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecSeleukidColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecPtolemaioiColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecBaktriaColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecPergamonColonistsOn 1 or event_counter ecBosporanColonistsOn 1
{
capability ;;; Recruitment pool - 8 * 0.03
{
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry hippakontistai" 1 0.06 2 0 requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry baktrioi hippotoxotai" 1 0.06 2 0 requires factions { f_baktria, }
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai" 1 0.09 3 0 requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hoplitai haploi" 1 0.09 3 0 requires factions { f_kh, }
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry akontistai" 1 0.06 2 0 requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry toxotai" 1 0.03 1 0 requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
happiness_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, }
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { f_kh, }
}
material stone
construction 4
cost 6000
settlement_min town
upgrades
{
polis_two
}

I notice that the Polis needs "event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 1". I'd guess that's probably a "ready to send out colonists" event that occurs at your capital city. If you've lost all you other cities, colonies might be out of the question. I dunno. Let's see in the campaign script:

;;
;; EPEIROS
;;
;; Test how many Metropoleis Epeiros controls:
;;
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionType f_epeiros
and I_EventCounter ecOlympicYear = 1
and I_EventCounter ecSpring = 1
and SettlementBuildingExists = polis_three
inc_counter EpeirosColonyPoints 1
end_monitor
;
monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType f_epeiros
if I_CompareCounter EpeirosColonyPoints > 0
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 1
end_if
end_monitor
;
monitor_event AddedToBuildingQueue FactionType f_epeiros
and BuildingName = helcol_one
inc_counter EpeirosColonyPoints -1

if I_CompareCounter EpeirosColonyPoints = 0
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 0
end_if
end_monitor
;
monitor_event AddedToBuildingQueue FactionType f_epeiros
and BuildingName = helcol_two
inc_counter EpeirosColonyPoints -1

if I_CompareCounter EpeirosColonyPoints = 0
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 0
end_if
end_monitor
;
monitor_event AddedToBuildingQueue FactionType f_epeiros
and BuildingName = helcol_three
inc_counter EpeirosColonyPoints -1

if I_CompareCounter EpeirosColonyPoints = 0
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 0
end_if
end_monitor
;
monitor_event AddedToBuildingQueue FactionType f_epeiros
and BuildingName = polis_one
inc_counter EpeirosColonyPoints -1

if I_CompareCounter EpeirosColonyPoints = 0
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 0
end_if
end_monitor
;
; Re-enable the event counter after the player has clicked the end turn button. If this isn't done, the colony builing will never complete.
;
monitor_event ButtonPressed ButtonPressed end_turn
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 1
end_monitor
;
; Disable the event counter at the end of faction turn.
;
monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType f_epeiros
set_event_counter ecEpeirosColonistsOn 0
end_monitor

It looks like you need to have a "polis_three" building to send out any colonists. Two Epirote cities start with polis_two buildings, so I guess you need to upgrade a polis before colonizing. Kind of makes a migration campaign difficult, but still not impossible.

I'd have liked to made those quotes hidden, spoiler thingies, but I don't know how.

[Nicov55]

Thank you a lot. Now it is starting to make sense. I now know why i was able to upgrade several settlements after conquering greek culture cities that already had metropolis.
But i still have doubts regarding the native administration, is there any chance to build poleis there or shall i destroy it and choose another option?

[Ballpoint202]

Thank you a lot. Now it is starting to make sense. I now know why i was able to upgrade several settlements after conquering greek culture cities that already had metropolis.
But i still have doubts regarding the native administration, is there any chance to build poleis there or shall i destroy it and choose another option?

Apparently Ptolomies can build two types of "colony" using colony points: polis and hellenic colonies. Polis can be built where there is a minimum level of hellenic culture, but they do not affect culture. Hellenic colonies raise culture and to build them you can't have an allied type of govt or an eastern colony in the province.

So for a full conversion of a city, you build hellenic colonies to raise culture, then build polis when the culture is high enough. Each requires a colonist to sent out from a metropolis, and apparently the more metropolises you have, the more colonists get sent out.

I'm not sure that polis needs native admin, but the hellenic colonies definitely need the factional govt type.

At least, I think that's what the files say. It's pretty complex in there.

[saxnot]

So as i understand it, the greeks have a colony point system, while the romans just use gradual conversion?
So what about the forest tribal cultures? do more tribes in a region equate to quicker cultural conversion, or do the migrated tribes provide units regardless of culture levels?
Also, how what about the parthians? How do they spread culture and how does that relate to the switch from nomadic to sedentary?
Does each culture type just have completely different conversion mechanics?

It would be nice if there was a sticky somewhere that introduced the culture system: an explanation of how it works for each culture group, and what buildings provide what rate of conversion.

I dont have a problem with conversion being slow or complicated, but as it is, it's just very unclear.

[Wulfburk]

What i still havent got it is the fact that i cant build any buildings related to it at all, but i still get the "Colonists" message every turn as Pergamon.

[Ballpoint202]

I just read the building browser description of the Hellenistic Metropolis aka "polis_three" and it says that it is the source of colonists. So you need to upgrade one city to minimum city level then build a metropolis, then every 16 turns you can send out colonists.

[QuintusSertorius]

I just read the building browser description of the Hellenistic Metropolis aka "polis_three" and it says that it is the source of colonists. So you need to upgrade one city to minimum city level then build a metropolis, then every 16 turns you can send out colonists.

In two other instances (Massalia and Emporion), the Independent Province that was there when it was Rebel was replaced by a Hellenistic Polis building when I took it. In the case of Syracuse, there's nothing at all.

I don't have any other settlements, this was a migration game with Syrakousai to be my new capital. Except I can't develop it (beyond a certain point) without a Hellenistic Polis building.

[Ballpoint202]

In two other instances (Massalia and Emporion), the Independent Polity that was there when it was Rebel was replaced by a Hellenistic Polis building when I took it. In the case of Syracuse, there's nothing at all.

I don't have any other settlements, this was a migration game with Syrakousai to be my new capital. Except I can't develop it (beyond a certain point) without a Hellenistic Polis building.

Unfortunately, Syracuse doesn't start with a polis. Massalia and Emporion do, if I'm reading the files right. Short of modding the descr_strat.txt file to give Syracuse (or any other city you choose) a polis at start, there might not be anything you can do about it.

[QuintusSertorius]

Unfortunately, Syracuse doesn't start with a polis. Massalia and Emporion do, if I'm reading the files right. Short of modding the descr_strat.txt file to give Syracuse (or any other city you choose) a polis at start, there might not be anything you can do about it.

Yep, sounds like it was missed in the descr_strat.txt - same goes for Olbia too.

[Arutima]

There are some cultural assimilation building, but they are far in between and only give 1% conversion rate. Other buildings surely need to give assimilation.

[Funeh]

Yeah, I asked this question like 5 times and no one answered. I play Saba, and my default culture is also "Eastern Tribal" but my "Eastern Imperial" is rising.. I want to be Imperial but I dont know how to change it to my default culture..

[naq]

If so I think ingame descriptions should make it clear which culture the building helps rising.