Suggestions for Eventual Baktria Overhaul

[Caius Martius Coriolanus]

While I know that version 1.1, which will include an overhaul of the Eastern Factions, is still a fair amount of time away, I felt that that starting a discussion now couldn't exactly hurt. Baktria was probably my favorite faction to play in Europa Barbarorum, and it is one of my favorite parts of the Hellenistic Period. With that said, I hope when the DEI team gets around to overhauling this faction, they take into consideration the uniqueness of its culture. Here are some suggestions of mine:

1) Baktria should be its own subculture.

2) Baktria should get an expanded Temple building tree which includes not only the standard array of Hellenistic buildings but also various Buddhist temples as well. Buddhism was fairly prominent in the Greco-Baktrian Kingdom and some of its Kings may have even converted to Buddhism. The Buddhist buildings should offer unique effects to set them apart from the Hellenic ones.

3) I hope the Baktrians will have access to the super-heavy cataphracts that they had in Europa Barbarorum as general units. Seeing those lion-masked tanks in the Rome II engine would be incredible.

Feel free to add on to this discussion. I would love some more feedback and I'm sure the DEI team would as well.

[zombieflanders]

1) Baktria should be its own subculture.

Apart from the fact the mod team has stated that Patch 14 has messed up their ability to create subcultures for the foreseeable future, I can't say I agree. At least at the initial timeframe and among the elites, the Greco-Bactrian kingdom was strongly and proudly Hellenic, and went to great efforts to promote Hellenism among the local people. If anything, Baktria should be grouped with Pontus rather than under the Diadochi, although that may be a hardcoded limitation.

2) Baktria should get an expanded Temple building tree which includes not only the standard array of Hellenistic buildings but also various Buddhist temples as well. Buddhism was fairly prominent in the Greco-Baktrian Kingdom and some of its Kings may have even converted to Buddhism. The Buddhist buildings should offer unique effects to set them apart from the Hellenic ones.

You're thinking of the Indo-Greek kingdoms, which in terms of the game were off the map. The spread of Buddhism amongst the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom was limited, although absorption of local religions (including Zoroastrianism) was apparently widespread. The game already kind of does this with the Satrap buildings (city centre and stables), although maybe borrowing an eastern religion building would not be out of place.

3) I hope the Baktrians will have access to the super-heavy cataphracts that they had in Europa Barbarorum as general units. Seeing those lion-masked tanks in the Rome II engine would be incredible.

I don't know the historicity of these, but perhaps differentiating the Hellenes Kataphraktoi would be worthwhile. I think it might be a good idea to make the Kataphraktoi Indikoi Elephantes a reform unit rather than a beginning unit, as it is a bit OP.

[Caius Martius Coriolanus]

1) I suppose I see your point here. I was unaware of how Patch 14 messed this up. I figured that since they made the Seleucids their own subculture, Baktria probaby would be as well. They would undoubtedly be a Hellenic Kingdom, but they definitely had far more eastern influences than any other Hellenistic Kingdom.

2) True, although I like to think of the Indo-Greeks as part of the same Greco-Baktrian culture, which they were. At the very least they certainly had strong ties with India even before they were forced to invade it. At the very least they could maybe come up with some eastern Hellenic buildings to make them stand out, like a temple to Artemis-Anahita or Dionisos.

3) This one is just pure wish-fulfillment on my part. They were a very cool-looking unit, although I do question the historicity of their skins in EB. However, I do trust EB's scholarship.

[GatorMarine1833]

The Greco-Bactrian Kingdom did indeed have a fair amount of Buddhist influence, at least amongst the aristocracy. Several of their kings were Buddhist and used Buddhist iconography on their coinage.

[zombieflanders]

Again, that was the Indo-Greek kingdoms, not the Greco-Bactrian ones. They would have been established well after the game start (and probably after the end of any DeI game not running at 1TPY), and off the map quite a ways.

[GatorMarine1833]

Again, that was the Indo-Greek kingdoms, not the Greco-Bactrian ones. They would have been established well after the game start (and probably after the end of any DeI game not running at 1TPY), and off the map quite a ways.

OK, let me try again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucratides

He was, to the best of our knowledge, a Buddhist and used Buddhist iconography on his coinage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathocles_of_Bactria

May also have been Buddhist. He used both Buddhist and Hindu iconography on his coinage in addition to Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_I_of_Bactria

Also probably Buddhist and used Buddhist iconography. He was a Greco-Bactrian king who, guess what, conquered part of India to form the Indo-Greek kingdom. Some argue that he conquered part of India to protect Buddhists from persecution.

Yes, Buddhism was bigger with the Indo-Greeks, but it was also present with the Greco-Bactrians.

[zombieflanders]

The article on Eucratides I has one unsourced statement, the article for Demetrius I states that his links to Buddhism outside of economic solidarity were minimal at best, and the article for Agathocles explictly says that he was an Indo-Greek king of regions off the Rome 2/DeI map. Try Rachel Mair's The Archaeology of the Hellenistic Far East: A Survey for recent archaeological attestations (or really, the lack thereof) for a significant Buddhist force in government in 3rd-century and early 2nd-century Bactria.

[GatorMarine1833]

It's not just the statements, it's the prevalence of Buddhist iconography on coins. It's there, on the coins pictured in a variety of their articles. You're saying they had no Buddhists in the Greco-Bactrian kingdom, I'm saying they were there. I'm not saying everyone was Buddhist or that it was the most prominent religion, just that the influence was there.

Tand the article for Agathocles explictly says that he was an Indo-Greek king of regions off the Rome 2/DeI map.

...and also that "He might have been a son of Demetrius and one of his sub-kings in charge of the Paropamisade between Bactria and India". Do you not see how, in the context of a game in which the player alters history how that is significant? Say the player doesn't send Agathocles to India - poof, now he's a Buddhist king of the Greco-Bactrians.

If you need me to explain further: if there is even one plausible piece of evidence (like, say, coins that have Buddhist iconography) then my argument is sound. That is to say: my argument is that there was a degree of Buddhist influence on at least some of the leaders of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom.

I've already said that I agree that it was more prevalent in the Indo-Greek kingdom, I'm only saying that it was also present in the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom to some extent. From a gameplay perspective, giving Bactria Some Buddhist temples would be an interesting way to differentiate them further from other Hellenistic factions.

[Dresden]

Historical debate withstanding, the problem in the game is that you can't choose to change cultures for your faction. I am not really sure I see the gameplay point of having a Buddhist character without the possibility of having an actual culture for that.

[Oakwind]

I also don't think that adding more cultures to the mix would actually add any value to the gameplay. The political and cultural systems are already barebones and mostly an annoyance, which is by no means the DeI team's fault. The systems in place are more than sufficient and resources should be directed towards units, buildings and tweaking the balance.

In addition, having iconography on coins or public works is not an indication of actual religion. Rulers have always done what cements their position, irregardless of personal convictions. I don't mean to be an ass, but shoehorning stuff like this into the mod would only add unnecessary complexity to where it's not needed. At best the way this could be implemented is adding a local traditions modifier for a would-be Buddhist culture, which is offset easily. Why?

[TheOrangeProject]

Also the current system withthe existing cultures is also a pain, imo. I dont see that the current system makes any sense. Sometimes you have cultural influence growth with 2 against 11 and then (the highest i had so far) i had 31 for my culutre versus 5 and 4. The culture went up with 0,whatsoever. As i had 21, it was not enough and went even down.

So...i dont think it is the right time to mess with the current system.