Dedicated skirmishing units vs pila/javelin-equipped melee infantry

**antred** · August 18, 2014, 10:50 AM

As things stand at the moment, skirmishing doesn't work very well if the target unit has the ability to throw pila or javelins. It's not uncommon for the melee infantry unit to initiate a charge and fire a volley of pila into the skirmishing unit well before the skirmishers can throw their own javelins. Without additional modifiers, the base range at which javelin-equipped skirmishers can fire their missiles (60, IIRC) seems reasonably realistic. However, I'm often seeing charging melee infantry fire their javelins over ranges that seem easily twice that large (and at insane speeds with a virtually flat trajectory, at that), giving them an unfair and unrealistic advantage. If their pila have so much more damage potential, it's probably because they're much heavier. Hence they shouldn't be able to throw them anywhere near as far, and certainly not at such tremendous speed.

**Butan** · August 18, 2014, 11:10 AM

You sure about the "double range" part? Sometimes they "start" the charge-throw at a point where the enemy is trying to run, distancing themselves from the throwing but still getting hit, but I believe that the charge-throw animation is triggered at 60 meters too. Else its a major bug that needs fixing indeed.
I agree on the throwing weapon speed, it could be toned down a bit, but I feel its because they charge in the same time... making it more realistic (increased velocity).

Anyway, its true that it could require some balancing, atm the only advantage of skirmishers is ammunition and range damage, but its hard to make them survive long enough to use all!

**Cope** · August 18, 2014, 12:15 PM

I'm sure that missile balancing will be part of 1.0. I agree with a lot of what you have said here - though I'd like to take it a step further to consider all missile units. Personally I would like to see much longer skirmish modes which I assume can be achieved by increasing the range of all missile units.

For one reason or another, the AI doesn't start firing fast enough even when it's within range meaning that by the time it's dealt any damage to the predictably onrushing AI, it is already sprinting back behind the lines for protection. Typically you usually get less than ten seconds between the AI coming into range and it then reaching your missile units in melee combat.

**spirroouu** · August 18, 2014, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Leving

I'm sure that missile balancing will be part of 1.0. I agree with a lot of what you have said here - though I'd like to take it a step further to consider all missile units. Personally I would like to see much longer skirmish modes which I assume can be achieved by increasing the range of all missile units.

For one reason or another, the AI doesn't start firing fast enough even when it's within range meaning that by the time it's dealt any damage to the predictably onrushing AI, it is already sprinting back behind the lines for protection. Typically you usually get less than ten seconds between the AI coming into range and it then reaching your missile units in melee combat.

I don't really agree on this. My opinion might be a little biased though, as I usually upgrade most of my generals with the faster firing and the more max range upgrades, which brings me at around 160 range for normal rangers and 200 for gallic hunters.

I honestly do get my fair share of skirmishes, the AI usually has a few archers and then its an archer fight when the fight breaks out, even though I usually master them because of my numeric superiority. As for the javelin throwing melee units, I believe they are made to be that way, was it not made to nerf the AI's constant skirmishing? To me their javelins are extremely useful as I usually throw them at their skirmishers when my archers are out of ammo, since that is the only way to hit them afterwards. Every faction has them too I believe, so you could use them just as them.
I usually don't rely on the automated skirmishing and control them myself when the melee units come too close, this because the automated version is too unpredictable (I never pause the game).

Originally Posted by Butan

Anyway, its true that it could require some balancing, atm the only advantage of skirmishers is ammunition and range damage, but its hard to make them survive long enough to use all!

I don't really understand what you mean by that, do you put your skirmishers in the front line or? Because I never had them die or bail on me... Well, rarely, sometimes an unlucky cav charge goes through or they just follow someone out of their ranks.
I do play the hellenic factions so that might be the reason mine don't die?

**Butan** · August 18, 2014, 05:55 PM

I try to not use them behind a main line of my units : it does way less damage and will do a lot of friendly fire.

Best to put them at the frontline and throw-retreat, and then focus-break important units, or flank/rear fire.
Else I prefer to invest in more javelin carrying infantry, more bang for your buck.

**spirroouu** · August 18, 2014, 06:00 PM

Interesting... I tend to use them to take out the enemy skirmishers, as I often have more range. You should then try archers, the projectiles lob so friendly fire is far less likely (and let us be honest, they have insane damage) either that or Rhodos Slingers, the other ones are not that good.