2nd world-wide community Total War survey [RESULTS]

[alQamar]

Hey guys,

good news on the topic


we have passed

1500

participants.

the OP on totalwar.com is not very good imho as it does give the users any information about the background, nor the promo video nor a link to the survey so they actually have to click 2 times to come here and then read this OP and find the survey link in between.

I hope there could be an improvement in the future on totalwar.com regarding this. Time will tell.

[alQamar]

Hmmm, a couple of split polls there man, like question 5.



5*Do you mind that TW:Rome 2 or other TW games are only available via Steam?
See possible reasons below the questions.

• Yes, I mind that TW is only available via Steam
• I don't care
• No, I don't mind that

You split the positive answers in two so that the anti-Steam answer will win. Not good polling.

and by the way, was the poll on this thread necessary?

You split the poll again in 33

Do you miss the multiplayer hot-seat campaign mode in Rome 2? yes, no, do not care.

Yes or no would have sufficed there.

So again back to the user feedback.

Especially thanks to Sebidee. Generally from all the feedback I got from Steam, TWC or elsewhere it seems to be clear that we should have had a longer BETA phase to sort out the last issues this survey seems to have.
But i wonder why so less people actually from TWC took part in the BETA and in the particular thread that was on page 1 for some days? Not to say the feedback from TWC was useless or tiny but it is somehow strange people come around with complaints and suggestions now that the train is running.


An explaination about why "I do not care" is not an implied "no":

1. No offence but most of us aren't girls, I think. They use the implied no. For example using the word "Maybe" in case there are options to say "yes" or "no" in a same situation. I think some may know this from their daily life.
2. I will take care that the users that choosed "I do not care" will not be added to the ones that said "No", so again I personally do not see it being a bias towards a faction. Especially not to the pro-Steam faction.
I agree the wording is unlucky and could have been something like "I do not want to answer this question" to be completely clear.

Your example about the president election is actually a good one on the Steam question Sebidee. You are an outstanding modder with a very keen mind but it is quite another level how you interprete the "I do not care".
In the following I would like to explain why it is not a problem or biased to have this option:

Again the election example.

We people that vote for an democratic president candidate (I do not mind Steam)
We people that vote for a republican president candidate (Yes I mind TW is on Steam)
And we have a party of people that do not go to the election at all (I do not mind)

It is important to have this 3 options as the world is not always "binary" consisting of YES or NO or 1 and 0. The intention to include this here was to give people a chance to select the do not want to express their opinion to this matter, or they simply do not care.

So at the end we will have a yes or no faction winning while I will take care to let the "I do not care" faction completely out.

There are a few other questions where this is possible, but this is only more accidential. Because the fact that I "had" to change the layout to make some questions optional and so avoid people to say "no.." several times, - see postings above -
This one with the campaign is somehow a sort of debris of this action.


Are you ok with this logic that applies in the survey Sebidee?

[canaan700]

A great survey! Done!

[Sebidee]

An explaination about why "I do not care" is not an implied "no":

1. No offence but most of us aren't girls, I think. They use the implied no. For example using the word "Maybe" in case there are options to say "yes" or "no" in a same situation. I think some may know this from their daily life.
2. I will take care that the users that choosed "I do not care" will not be added to the ones that said "No", so again I personally do not see it being a bias towards a faction. Especially not to the pro-Steam faction.
I agree the wording is unlucky and could have been something like "I do not want to answer this question" to be completely clear.

Your example about the president election is actually a good one on the Steam question Sebidee. You are an outstanding modder with a very keen mind but it is quite another level how you interprete the "I do not care".
In the following I would like to explain why it is not a problem or biased to have this option:

Again the election example.

We people that vote for an democratic president candidate (I do not mind Steam)
We people that vote for a republican president candidate (Yes I mind TW is on Steam)
And we have a party of people that do not go to the election at all (I do not mind)

It is important to have this 3 options as the world is not always "binary" consisting of YES or NO or 1 and 0. The intention to include this here was to give people a chance to select the do not want to express their opinion to this matter, or they simply do not care.

So at the end we will have a yes or no faction winning while I will take care to let the "I do not care" faction completely out.

There are a few other questions where this is possible, but this is only more accidential. Because the fact that I "had" to change the layout to make some questions optional and so avoid people to say "no.." several times, - see postings above -
This one with the campaign is somehow a sort of debris of this action.


Are you ok with this logic that applies in the survey Sebidee?

Generally the questions were quite good. There was no real bias and any that I noticed (question 5 and 33) I know were purely accidental.

I'm not entirely happy because the nature of the question AND the nature of the answers combine to make a question difficult to interpret. For example, question 5. It's kind of strange as the question is far from cut and dry. The questions should be more straight forward so rather than 'Do you mind that TW is only available on steam' it should be 'Are you against TW only being available on steam'. I know that that seems very very pedantic but people need to be very clear on what the question is about. Especially if it is something as important as this and if many people might not speak English as a first language.

Then you have the answers. I fully agree that there should be three answers, a positive one, a negative one and a neutral one. But again the choices need to be very very clear. Rather than 'I don't care' it should be 'No answer' or 'No opinion'.

Mostly you can get away with 'I don't care' but in question 5 the question and the neutral and negative responses combine to make it very confusing. In everyday English conversation 'I don't care' and 'I don't mind' means LITERALLY the exact same thing, there is no difference. When you ask someone 'If they mind' something then 'I don't care' is a perfectly acceptable (if awkward) negative answer.

Of course, question 5's actual negative answer also includes 'I don't mind' so - to an everyday English speaker - they are almost the same. I was going through the few questions before it quite fast but for question 5 (and later 33) I had to stop and reread the question. I fear that others may not have done that and the results might be skewed.

You also, obviously have to look at what question 5 is actually asking (it's passive nature leaves it open to interpretation). I read it as 'Does it upset you that TW is only available only on steam?' and of course 'I don't care' is a perfectly acceptable negative answer. If I said for example: 'al-qamar, I don't like your avatar, does that upset you?' then do you agree that 'I don't care' would be a genuine answer meaning that you are not upset?

I know it's tiny but on a survey like this little quirks of language can have a big impact. I am sure you are very familiar with normal polls on TWC and how much it can be skewed towards one direction. I reckon this survey, since it aims to achieve a single opinion for the entire community, will come under attack from both pro and anti-Rome 2 sides. Any miniscule hint of bias would be enough to condemn and disregard the whole thing. It probably could have been tested more but to be honest I was unaware it was being tested at all and I have been on TWC doing modding stuff all week.

EDIT:

2. I will take care that the users that choosed "I do not care" will not be added to the ones that said "No", so again I personally do not see it being a bias towards a faction. Especially not to the pro-Steam faction.

If the question was intended to be biased then it would have been in favour of the anti-steam faction (and I think pro-steam, pro-CA, Pro-Rome 2 users will be genuinely worried that a TWC survey may have anti-steam, CA, and Rome 2 sentiments). Do you agree that IF 'I don't care' and 'no' were confused then it would split the pro-steam faction in half and give anti-steam an automatic majority with my 50%, 25%, 25% logic? if anything you should add the 'i don't care' answers to the 'No' answers.

I'll give you another example of a question that could be skewed like this.

You were outside in the rain, are you wet?

• Yes
• I do not feel wet
• No

Yeah sure, you could be wet and not feel it. But generally it is the same as no.

I don't care means to lack any emotion, right? that's the literal interpretation of that phrase. So if you are asking someone if they mind something, i.e. if they are upset or put out then saying that they have no feeling is the same as saying they are not upset. Like not feeling wet is the same as not being wet.

All of it could have been solved if 'No answer' was an answer on all questions.

[Butan]

If you're discussing about "test phases" and "statistically subjective" poll choices, very technical negative criticism, that means this survey is quite good.


Love the feedback you're receiving on the official forum

I suppose it is the new thread from my friend
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ar-fans-by-TWC
end of the problem

Is it normal the 1st post is empty of links or anything?

[Sebidee]

If you're discussing about "test phases" and "statistically subjective" poll choices, very technical negative criticism, that means this survey is quite good.

Technical criticism is still criticism. Especially if that criticism is about bias.

This survey is meant to be an honest representation of the community's opinion. The community's opinion is important right? Actually don't answer that, it looks like the critical opinions about the survey are being ignored or disregarded.

A lot of the survey was vague and confusing and there were two questions which definitely looked biased. If someone with an agenda wanted to use this to avhieve their own opinion and claim it as fact by using this survey's result in the future they could do a lot of damage. I'm not saying that the people who made this are biased but since it is coming from TWC we should at least be skeptical.

[alQamar]

Technical criticism is still criticism. Especially if that criticism is about bias.

This survey is meant to be an honest representation of the community's opinion. The community's opinion is important right? Actually don't answer that, it looks like the critical opinions about the survey are being ignored or disregarded.

A lot of the survey was vague and confusing and there were two questions which definitely looked biased. If someone with an agenda wanted to use this to avhieve their own opinion and claim it as fact by using this survey's result in the future they could do a lot of damage. I'm not saying that the people who made this are biased but since it is coming from TWC we should at least be skeptical.

Hi Sebidee, I do not want to shut your opinion down, please do not misunderstand me. But in fact there are about 3-4 acknowledged problems with the poll:
- a few of the 80 questions may appear biased, already except those asked in context to compare the December survey
- the formatting could be better
- as daelin4 said it could be better structured especially in regards to make it more easier for people that did never play Rome 2 / naval battles etc
- the formatting is a slight problem too


You should know sebidee that I agree with you that a biased survey can indeed damage the community but this one really would not. I can see the results other than you. And then you are politely critizing the survey for pages, while the survey is majorly unbiased and fine. You are complaining on a high level. If you like you can get access to the survey the totalwar.com community and fredrin made to understand there are literally WORLDS between both surveys for the positive of the current.

So may we please stop the discussion about these aspect for a moment, please and focus on the positive things and real problems we have to face?
I will not accept to use the current poll as an extended test phase as you proposed, just because those few things. Instead I will try change the order of question 5 about Steam if even possible without deleting the results. The reason why I do not accept to restart the survey at all is the massive amount of work and time spent into crafting it already, plus the time to promote it to the current extend.

[Sebidee]

You should know sebidee that I agree with you that a biased survey can indeed damage the community but this one really would not. I can see the results other than you. And then you are politely critizing the survey for pages, while the survey is majorly unbiased and fine. You are complaining on a high level. If you like you can get access to the survey the totalwar.com community and fredrin made to understand there are literally WORLDS between both surveys for the positive of the current.

So may we please stop the discussion about these aspect for a moment, please and focus on the positive things and real problems we have to face?
I will not accept to use the current poll as an extended test phase as you proposed, just because those few things. Instead I will try change the order of question 5 about Steam if even possible without deleting the results. The reason why I do not accept to restart the survey at all is the massive amount of work and time spent into crafting it already, plus the time to promote it to the current extend.

I'm not complaining. Actually I think that on balance the survey is quite good. I can't really remember the one that was made last year but I think it was quite biased, this is certainly better. I forget my original point, I think I was derailed first by someone saying I was using weirdo logic and then the Official forum stuff. I think what I was trying to say is that people should question stuff like this simply because it is very important, they shouldn't take it as gospel just because of the effort put in (even though there obviously was a lot of effort). We've got to be hyper critical to make sure that surveys aren't abused, they could easily be abused and that would be disastrous.

But! I think based on what you've said and the many good questions that were in the survey that it wasn't biased and any parts that looked like it were just genuine mistake. I look forward to seeing the results.

[daelin4]

No one can ever possibly get a truly objective, bias-free result just from one poll, we should just accept the fact that whatever the results are, they may not necessarily reflect sentiments towards the Total War games very accurately. More surveys and other methods of obtaining data on the matter is required to even come close.

So bias or not, we should not put too much value into this one survey even if it was perfectly crafted. Polls and surveys can only do so much for so many topics.

[Butan]

No one can ever possibly get a truly objective, bias-free result just from one poll, we should just accept the fact that whatever the results are, they may not necessarily reflect sentiments towards the Total War games very accurately. More surveys and other methods of obtaining data on the matter is required to even come close.

So bias or not, we should not put too much value into this one survey even if it was perfectly crafted. Polls and surveys can only do so much for so many topics.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, discrediting the survey in passing.

I would like to be directed to more surveys using other methods of obtaining data having been directed by CA... If there is none, the only thing we need to know is that at least the community is doing some, as biased as they are, because they provide information that doesnt exist in other forms or places.

[Sebidee]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, discrediting the survey in passing.

I would like to be directed to more surveys using other methods of obtaining data having been directed by CA... If there is none, the only thing we need to know is that at least the community is doing some, as biased as they are, because they provide information that doesnt exist in other forms or places.

A biased survey would damage the community a lot. I would have like to see this tested more for starters.

[daelin4]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, discrediting the survey in passing.

I would like to be directed to more surveys using other methods of obtaining data having been directed by CA... If there is none, the only thing we need to know is that at least the community is doing some, as biased as they are, because they provide information that doesn't exist in other forms or places.

I was merely pointing out that we're not going to see much results out of this specific survey. The very fact that this labelled as the second survey indicates that the last one was never intended to be the only one, and for good reason.

My own proposal that the various subcategories involved in the survey be separated. Besides more surveys, it allows these specific subjects to be examined in more depth. Even a survey focused on a single TW game woudl suffice, since the individual games all have many things that are not in common. A single giant survey that tries to cover everything reminds me of Rome2, and that is not meant to be a complement.

[Radious]

Survey Done, very good one. Promoted it in my recent interview + on my mods page. Good Work!

Its really silly what is happening on offical forums, wonder why so much hate for something so interesting.....sometimes i dont understand things.

[alQamar]

Thanks radious, I wonder if anyone comes now even across to assume you did this on my behalf too... just a matter of time I suspect?
I am speechless. Thank you for supporting the community and this matter actually.
I said I do not want to discuss this here at all and refrain from this issue in this thread, but now we have so obvious contradictionary facts it is impossible to reject this.

[Modestus]

Regards some of the questions being yes no or do not care that is fine the do not care is essentially a neutral answer it perhaps should have been phrased as no opinion either way.

In fact not having a third answer is even more biased because it forces a person to be positive or negative on something when in fact they are neutral for example.......

Do you miss the multi player hot-seat campaign mode in Rome 2? yes, no, do not care.

I have no interest in multi player my answer is clearly I do not care it cannot be a yes or a no.

[tom_gr7]

For the record alQamar, i thought it was a pretty good survey and I appreciate you taking the time to create it. Looking forward to seeing the results.

[alQamar]

Hi Sebidee,

I have changed some questions according to your feedback, while it should not affect the already given answers. If you like to have another view on the survey or have detailed things that you like to see changed please contact me via PM.

[Radzeer]

Posts discussing moderation at .com are deleted/edited. I advise people on both sides to drop this discussion.CA's policy on this survey can be discussed in the business discussion thread as long as it does not become personal.

[Zom]

This survey is very poorly written. Q 73 has two different questions, one of which has an "or", and the available response is yes or no.

[twp127]

done and so is my body took 45min to complete