Hey Guys, Returning to DeI After a Long Break: Can I get some help understanding the changes?

[DakkaDon]

I've read through the changelog, but it seems there have been a large number!

I get that armies now don't give public order in cities, but could I get a better explanation of exactly how that works and how they are best deployed both in your own territory and against the enemy?

Apparently sieges now function? Is this true?

The map looks very odd, I'm assuming that was intentional (I'll admit I do miss the clean look of the old one, but this has a certain glamour for sure!)

I started a Carthage campaign, all my buildings are level 1 and every province had a lot of extra population from the start. Is this a bug or by design?

Are there any other changes in the game which are well worth noting? I don't quite get the dignitary changes for one. Also, I'm playing my first ever Very Hard campaign (normal battle difficulty), what sort of challenge will I face in DeI and what sort of AI bonuses? Thanks for any help, love this community and love the mod!


Generally the whole game looks incredible, your level of polish is approaching remarkable and all the congratulations to the team for their achievement so far! If you need any help or advice for the unit balancing, I have nearly 100 hours of time in DeI and some experience in stat balancing

[DakkaDon]

Oh also slaves, in the previous versions (and all of vanilla) slaves seem to exist solely as slightly unmeasurable revolution machines, and consequently I've got in the habit of not taking them in combat. But I notice some edict changes which might alter this, are slaves now worth it? Can they be managed, or the disorder accounted for? What are some experiences people have had managing a slave economy?

[spirroouu]

Let me give you a quick rundown:
The armies give negative public order when stationed inside a town, you should not station them inside your down but right outside it works better as it will give bonus PO for military occupation. Remember they also consume food in certain stances which can, yet again, be somewhat destructive when recovering an old savegame!
As for against the enemy, the enemy will often raid and such, so that has not changed. Neither has his behaviour, you can not really use this against the enemy either on very hard as their bonuses are too big.

About those bonuses: The AI, in very hard, ABUSES THEM! They get a 400% increased income which allows them to muster a couple of armies, they get a huge amount of starting imperium and possible armies. They will not starve to death (I confederated a nation that was at -88 food total, they didn't take a hit) they will not be that much smarter but why be smarter when you can recruit 6 units in a provincial capital?

The extra population is intended and has been present since the original game.

The AI for sieges is now well enhanced, although I have seen some mistakes here and there they are much better than they used to be and can prove to be a challenge on a rainy now. You'll get the reference.

Dignitaries are now good to keep as governors, you station them into a province and you keep them there with tax administration active, they can give several bonuses to you faction (like 15% research rate and more). They are meant to be stationary and passively gain XP, don't forget you can do the same with a general in a city (although this DOES use public order (-11)).

Slaves are now sellable with the sell slave edict, if you have too much slaves, try to sell them with that edict. It will give a huge bonus to income but will fall off as your slaves get sold. It is good to use when catching loads of slaves at once, keep in mind you need to have the whole province captured.

I hope this answers your question.

[antred]

The AI for sieges is now well enhanced, although I have seen some mistakes here and there they are much better than they used to be and can prove to be a challenge on a rainy now. You'll get the reference.

In my opinion the AI is still utter shite, though admittedly not quite as shite as it was 14 patches ago.

[spirroouu]

In my opinion the AI is still utter shite, though admittedly not quite as shite as it was 14 patches ago.

Depends what you mean by shite, in my opinion it is the best AI EVER if you compare it to what it was before! I am pretty sure you would agree too.

[antred]

Depends what you mean by shite, in my opinion it is the best AI EVER if you compare it to what it was before! I am pretty sure you would agree too.

Not sure about that ... maybe. But then the bar was never very high to begin with, and seeing as this is the umpteenth installment of the TW series (and that it has been going for more than a decade), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a half-competent AI. Instead what we got is an AI that still couldn't find its own ass with both hands and a flashlight; an AI that sends its units piecemeal ... to get slaughtered piecemeal (both on the offense and defense) while the main body hangs back and waits until it's time to send the next unit to get annihilated. An AI that, on the odd chance that it actually builds a ram, uses it to destroy the gate and then ignores the gate and instead scales the ladders. An AI that instead of trying to win the main fight at or on the walls, rushes individual, isolated units to the town center, where they are quickly isolated and destroyed while the rest of its units near the walls also get wiped out since it neglected to help them instead. An AI that doesn't bother to secure arrow / scorpion towers, even when they're not guarded by enemy troops, and instead prefers to rush unit after unit past those towers and suffer hundreds of completely avoidable casualties from their fire.

Then there's the totally defunct path finding AI that frequently makes me want to pull my hair out over trying to get a unit to move to a certain point on the walls. Either they'll move in the completely wrong direction, or instead of just walking to the destination on the walls, they decide to get off the wall and merrily walk through a mass of enemy hoplites on the ground. Or they'll just not respond to movement orders at all, or or or ... (insert one of a dozen other path finding issues).

I haven't played Rome 1 or Medieval 2 in a while, so maybe I'm suffering from a case of the-olden-days-were-golden-days, but as far as I remember, even those ancient TW games didn't have quite as many siege-related issues as Rome 2.

[wrcromartie]

I haven't played Rome 1 or Medieval 2 in a while, so maybe I'm suffering from a case of the-olden-days-were-golden-days, but as far as I remember, even those ancient TW games didn't have quite as many siege-related issues as Rome 2.

Med 2 / R1 the sieges had a ton of nonsense. Usually it was the same pile towards the gate & get massacred, although sometimes they did make use of towers / ladders.

Also it was virtually impossible to get your troops to respond properly when on the walls.

Still those maps seemed to always be fun somehow.

[spirroouu]

Not sure about that ... maybe. But then the bar was never very high to begin with, and seeing as this is the umpteenth installment of the TW series (and that it has been going for more than a decade), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a half-competent AI. Instead what we got is an AI that still couldn't find its own ass with both hands and a flashlight; an AI that sends its units piecemeal ... to get slaughtered piecemeal (both on the offense and defense) while the main body hangs back and waits until it's time to send the next unit to get annihilated. An AI that, on the odd chance that it actually builds a ram, uses it to destroy the gate and then ignores the gate and instead scales the ladders. An AI that instead of trying to win the main fight at or on the walls, rushes individual, isolated units to the town center, where they are quickly isolated and destroyed while the rest of its units near the walls also get wiped out since it neglected to help them instead. An AI that doesn't bother to secure arrow / scorpion towers, even when they're not guarded by enemy troops, and instead prefers to rush unit after unit past those towers and suffer hundreds of completely avoidable casualties from their fire.

Then there's the totally defunct path finding AI that frequently makes me want to pull my hair out over trying to get a unit to move to a certain point on the walls. Either they'll move in the completely wrong direction, or instead of just walking to the destination on the walls, they decide to get off the wall and merrily walk through a mass of enemy hoplites on the ground. Or they'll just not respond to movement orders at all, or or or ... (insert one of a dozen other path finding issues).

I haven't played Rome 1 or Medieval 2 in a while, so maybe I'm suffering from a case of the-olden-days-were-golden-days, but as far as I remember, even those ancient TW games didn't have quite as many siege-related issues as Rome 2.

What difficulty do you play on and when was the last time you actually played?

[DakkaDon]

Thanks for the really detailed answer! That makes a lot of sense, I appreciate you taking the time What about the map, just a design change?

[Cope]

Yes, the overhead map change is just a design change.

[Butan]

Yep, just a design change.


Also the AOR (area of recruitment units) made it in DeI: you can recruit units of various cultures/factions you arent from if you own a settlement in the region. To recruit your own units your culture must be dominant, so dignitaries are very important. Dignitaries are EVEN more important for the reasons spirrou mentionned.

Some fixes here and there that you should not be aware of, but the game is more polished.


TL;DR: the last big update made massive changes on agents/public order and stances, and AOR units. Next big update will be overall unit stats balancing + intense polishing, which will not be save compatible, so enjoy your savegame or download the standalone.

[DakkaDon]

When is 1.0 due roughly?

[spirroouu]

Might be the difficulty then I play on VH and the AI does not make as much mistakes as you would expect, and he can be surprisingly good too...

[antred]

From my experience, the difficulty rating changes sweet all about the decision making of the AI. The AI simply cheats harder on higher difficulties.

[spirroouu]

Then your experience might just be wrong, as the AI will make different decisions when you put the battle difficulty on very hard the decisions will differ. So your AI will "think" less.
Why would there otherwise be a battle difficulty?

[Barune]

Then your experience might just be wrong, as the AI will make different decisions when you put the battle difficulty on very hard the decisions will differ. So your AI will "think" less.
Why would there otherwise be a battle difficulty?

as far as i know battle difficulty simply gives the ai units better stats, AKA AI Levies can beat your best of the best in single combat. So basicly, AI just cheats more, like he said.

[antred]

Then your experience might just be wrong, as the AI will make different decisions when you put the battle difficulty on very hard the decisions will differ. So your AI will "think" less.
Why would there otherwise be a battle difficulty?

I'm afraid that's mostly wishful thinking. In an ideal world, the difficulty level would indeed determine the cleverness of the AI, but I have found this to be the case in none of the games I've ever played. The only thing that changes are the various bonuses the AI gets (less unit upkeep, better combat stats, etc.).

[stevehoos]

Then your experience might just be wrong, as the AI will make different decisions when you put the battle difficulty on very hard the decisions will differ. So your AI will "think" less.
Why would there otherwise be a battle difficulty?

Nope, all a difficulty level increase does is give buffs to the AI, it does not improve AI tactics during battles. Been this way for a long time.

[spirroouu]

Nope, all a difficulty level increase does is give buffs to the AI, it does not improve AI tactics during battles. Been this way for a long time.

Then why is there a battle difficulty?...

[Barune]

Then your experience might just be wrong, as the AI will make different decisions when you put the battle difficulty on very hard the decisions will differ. So your AI will "think" less.
Why would there otherwise be a battle difficulty?

as far as i know battle difficulty simply gives the ai units better stats, AKA AI Levies can beat your best of the best in single combat. So basicly, AI just cheats more, like he said.

Then why is there a battle difficulty?...

See Above.