Infantry Wedge Formation

[Iron_Duke]

There is plenty of historical documentation to show that Greek and Roman infantry used a wedge formation. In Rome2 I have only thus far seen it as a cavalry formation, but it would be a great historical addition for some infantry in DeI. Forgive me if this has been added recently, I have held back from playing for a little while pending the release of 1.0

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[spirroouu]

Sounds like a good idea, but I, as a fanatic player of the hellenic factions I do not really see how I would use it, if ever.
The Hellenic factions are mostly defensive and are less prone to attacking face first, and would rather wait until the enemy comes to them to show them a wall of troops.
At least that is my perspective on the hellenic factions, if that is historically wrong or plain idiotic, then my bad.
I am sure though that for the romans it would be accurate and useful, although I do not have enough (or any) experience with them.

[Iron_Duke]

You may enjoy it being deployed against you!

I'm quite keen on playing as Rome, and there are many battles where it was famously deployed, such as against Boudica (Iceni). So to fight the Iceni, or anybody, without the wedge formation as an option for Roman infantry is a little bit frustrating.

[McCarronXLD]

I have seen it as an option for barbarian units but have never used it. Don't really use it for cavalry either. What does it do?

[spirroouu]

I imagine it can be yes, personally I like seeing it being used against me, they slam against my pike walls which is very nice and satisfying!
Or my hoplite walls for that matter.

Well McCarron, it greatly augments the effectiveness of a cavalry charge and gives them a huge bonus to charge which makes them even stronger when charging into the rear of gallic soldiers.

[The Forgotten]

The Germanic heavy infantry can use it, but I don't remember any Iceni units capable of wedge formation though. I am not sure if I would liked to see it on the Hellenic factions, but I would be happy if it got added to Spain and maybe the flax units.

[Iron_Duke]

That's interesting that Germanic heavy infantry can use it in DeI, but Roman infantry who are well documented as actually having used it cannot.

[Dresden]

I am fairly certain the Roman wedge formation was used in a much later time frame. But I could be wrong.

[tomFoolery]

I am fairly certain the Roman wedge formation was used in a much later time frame. But I could be wrong.

Would it be accurate enough if Imperial reform legionnaires had? I haven't ever used any infantry units that have access to it, what does it actually do for them? Does it bestow the same exact bonuses as it does to cavalry?

[Iron_Duke]

I am fairly certain the Roman wedge formation was used in a much later time frame. But I could be wrong.

As an infantry formation it is attested by Frontinus to have been used by the Romans in Pydna against the Macedonian line of Perseus, (June 22, 168 BC), in which the Roman general Aemilius Paulus defeated King Perseus, ended the reign of the Antigonid dynasty over Macedon.

So it was almost certainly being used some time before that and as Inrd907 pointed out it was adopted after the battle of Cannae which took place on 2 August 216 BC. Also, this tells us that Carthage was using the formation even before that time.

[SenseiJT92]

I like the idea to implement this formation; I would only give it to Roman Legionaries (or copycat, i.e. Thorax/Numidian/Armenian Legionaries). The idea of the wedge formation was initially anti-phalanx; it would not make sense to give it to the core Hellenic units.

Other anti-phalanx tactics

"Breaking phalanxes" illustrates more of the Roman army's flexibility. When the Romans faced phalangite armies, the legions often deployed the velites in front of the enemy with the command to contendite vestra sponte (attack), presumably with their javelins, to cause confusion and panic in the solid blocks of phalanxes. Meanwhile, auxilia archers were deployed on the wings of the legion in front of the cavalry, in order to defend their withdrawal. These archers were ordered to eiaculare flammas, fire incendiary arrows into the enemy. The cohorts then advanced in a wedge formation, supported by the velites' and auxiliaries' fire, and charged into the phalanx at a single point, breaking it, then flanking it with the cavalry to seal the victory. See the Battle of Beneventum for evidence of fire-arrows being used."

Also here is a video of the wedge formation in action: (8:00 onwards!)



(if the video does not work follow this link: http://youtu.be/OqkBf5KF-Zk?t=8m)

[Butan]

It increases their charge bonus a lot (and decrease their melee defense a tiny bit, if I'm not mistaken).

One problem is, infantry doesnt charge-stomp like cavalry, they often stop their real charge when the tip of the wedge has barely entered the enemy formation, making it useful only if you really want to do some damage at that small zone, or if you're okay having the rest of the wedge formation "walking" to the frontline without the charge bonus, which they will in time.


Also is useful if you have a javelin carrying infantry, charge-throwing in wedge formation and pulling back is a good deal slower than with cavalry but its almost as deadly.

[lnrd907]

Funny you guys mention this. I was watching youtube earlier and it seems the Imperial Romans adopted this from their crushing defeat at the hands of Hannibal at the Battle of Cannae

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ONce854oCg

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

@Death from Anon, nice vid! Just watching those guys march leads me to question how troops maintained cohesion in battle haha. Where did you get the wedge formation quote? I don't recall any battles whatsoever where Roman infantry formed a wedge and punched through a phalanx. Generally terrain caused the phalanx to become separated allowing the flexible maniples to take advantage.

@lnrd907, also cool vid, wish history channel would make more shows about history these days. Are you referring to the Romans or the Carthaginians who used a wedge at cannae because I would argue neither really used a wedge in an offensive sense. The Romans merely deepened their lines and where drawn in, but I doubt they formed a wedge on purpose.

I actually have have read a whole lot on infantry wedges, what exactly are the mechanics behind it? I feel that forming such a wedge sort of puts the front liners in a suicide position. It also invites envelopment.

[Iron_Duke]

I actually have have read a whole lot on infantry wedges, what exactly are the mechanics behind it? I feel that forming such a wedge sort of puts the front liners in a suicide position. It also invites envelopment.

The use of the wedge formation enabled the concentration of missiles against a limited front so was not only used not only to smash into the enemy line, but to also add to the effectiveness of long range, usually hurled weapons like javelins and hand axes.

Given that a wedge formation for an entire army limits envelopment by another army deployed in line, I would imagine the same must be true against a smaller formation. The fact that this formation is still used by many riot police today attests to it's effectiveness.

Also, if you have many units deployed in a line of wedges, the entire front will be shaped like a saw.... that means when they connect/smash-into an opposing line formation they will have local numerical superiority (due to greater surface area). The Roman's used this tactic against the Iceni and other 'barbarians' to offset the considerable numerical advantage that barbarians usually had.

[Butan]

It doesnt really invited envelopment IRL if the wedge managed to offensively drills into the enemy formation: the soldiers at the tip pushed the ones at the front and were instantly and successively supported by the men of the lower echelon, which gradually helped the upper echelon pushing even harder. Also as Iron Duke* said, it had the geometrical advantage of having more of your men get into melee against mathematically less enemies.

Also the wedge pre-charge wasnt the wedge post-charge: except if your men ripped the unit apart and ended up on the other side (which would be an instant rout local win), they would progressively pack themselves up, with the most concentrated point still being the tip of the wedge, but it would not be isolated from the rest of the formation as they were before the impact.


Then, I dont know the details on particular wedge angle in the ancient world, but I guess that not all wedges had an angle as sharp as the wedge formation in Rome 2, which seems to be at around 30°. Even a wedge formation bearing at an angle of 120° would have a better penetrating power than a line, and it would pose less counter-flanking problems.

[Iron_Duke]

I would agree that the wedge angle in Rome2 is a bit sharp, but I'd rather have that than no wedge formation for infantry. Am I correct in saying that adjusting the length/depth of a unit's lines will somewhat change the sharpness of their wedge angle? I haven't played with them for some long time.

[antred]

Can someone explain to me in physical terms why a charge delivered in wedge formation (be it cavalry or infantry) should be any more powerful than one delivered in any other formation? I can see a wedge-shaped cavalry charge having a certain psychological effect in that people will naturally tend to want to get out of the way of the nearest charging horses (i.e. the tip of the wedge) and thereby try to escape to the sides, which could lead to the formation of the unit receiving the charge getting split in half, but I do not understand why it would make the charge physically any more devastating.

EDIT: Sorry!! Should have read the thread before posting.

[Butan]

The charge bonus isnt really representative of the reality indeed, but its the best the engine can do!

If it was realistic, the wedge would not do more damage, but push the enemies out of the way thanks to their deeper ranks, separate enemy groups in 2 or more which would become uncontrollable sitting ducks and then headless chickens, except if the receiving units had either a) better mass, b) stronger morale, c) stronger melee, d) is supported by allies, or any combination of the 4.

I would agree that the wedge angle in Rome2 is a bit sharp, but I'd rather have that than no wedge formation for infantry. Am I correct in saying that adjusting the length/depth of a unit's lines will somewhat change the sharpness of their wedge angle? I haven't played with them for some long time.

Afaik, its always the same angle, it only changes with unit size and becomes more or less elongated.

[Iron_Duke]

I'm not an expert on game-mechanics, but I would assume that a bonus to a unit's mass while in wedge formation would actually be the be most representative of their increased 'push'.