Unveiled women are like meat to be eaten!

[danzig]

In another enlightened point of view by a muslim cleric we learn according to Australia's top cleric that women who dont cover up and wear a veil are little more then uncovered meat. If you leave meat out on the street and cats decide to devour it, it isnt the cat's fault but the fault of the meat! Even go so far as suggesting men convicted of rape are not entirely to blame because of this. Good to see however muslims quickly reacted to the lunacy of this cleric and denounced him. I wonder how many average muslins just sigh and shake their heads any time one of their religious leaders open their mouth to say such idiotic things. Though I wonder how in the world do people like this get to such a religious leadership position.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/...932071,00.html

[Sher Khan]

My neck is already creaking and hurting from all the head-shaking I've done in my short life-time.

Though I wonder how in the world do people like this get to such a religious leadership position.

The level headed ones usually go with pure cultural values and become family men first by getting jobs and raising kids. The rest do other things - the crazier of these become super political advocates or religious fanatics.

[KaerMorhen]

Though I wonder how in the world do people like this get to such a religious leadership position.

...maybe there are people in the world who need such "religious" advicers? :hmmm:

[Erik]

Many Christian priests hold the same opinion.
Including the ones from the village where I grew up.
When a 14 year old got raped in my village she was blamed for it by all the Christians because her skirt was too short or something.

Religion is sickening sometimes.

[KaerMorhen]

Many Christian priests hold the same opinion.
Including the ones from the village where I grew up.
When a 14 year old got raped in my village she was blamed for it by all the Christians because her skirt was too short or something.

Religion is sickening sometimes.

I've heard about similar stories but to be honest (no offense or insult intended) mentality of people living in small, close communities are often...let say specific.

[Erik]

I've heard about similar stories but to be honest (no offense or insult intended) mentality of people living in small, close communities are often...let say specific.

Yes, I blame it on the small village mentality too.
Just wanted to point out that this has nothing to do with Islam specifically, but more with religion in general.

I suspect the Muslim clerk comes from a small backwater village himself, this is not at all how Muslims from large cities think like.

No doubt but it is a view that not held by many people nor by many key religious figures atleast here in the US. The day and age of "she was asking for it" by the way she was dressed is for the most part gone in the US so thats why it is suprisingly when it pops up by notable religious leaders even in other countries. You would think we are past this backward thinking.

The US is a modern country.
My point is: not every country is as evolved as the west is, and most people from those countries still hold very backward ideas (I grew up in Ghana, Africa).
The cultural clash is really between modern areas and backward areas in the world, not between Christians and Muslims like many people seem to think these days.

[Syron]

I suspect the Muslim clerk comes from a small backwater village himself, this is not at all how Muslims from large cities think like.

That doesn't explain how the girl walking in front of me two days ago during Eid al Fitr got molested by an asian youth.

[Erik]

That doesn't explain how the girl walking in front of me two days ago during Eid al Fitr got molested by an asian youth.

Maybe he or his parents came from a backward village too?
I know most immigrants in my country do.

There is a huge difference between a Turk from Istanbul or Ankara and your typical "mountain Turk" is all I'm saying.

[danzig]

The US is a modern country.
My point is: not every country is as evolved as the west is, and most people from those countries still hold very backward ideas (I grew up in Ghana, Africa).
The cultural clash is really between modern areas and backward areas in the world, not between Christians and Muslims like many people seem to think these days.

Ah ok thought you were talking about Netherlands, cant be expected to remember where every TWCer was born Point taken though, attitudes like this would surely be far more common in less advanced nations though the cleric in this incident is in Australia. Ive seen enough of stories from christian missionaries in Africa (especially with AIDS and condoms) to believe their attitude would probably be very simliar to this cleric's.

[Ummon]

Many Christian priests hold the same opinion.
Including the ones from the village where I grew up.
When a 14 year old got raped in my village she was blamed for it by all the Christians because her skirt was too short or something.

Religion is sickening sometimes.

I know no christian priest or preacher encouraging rape of non-veiled women, sorry.

[carl-the-conqueror]

so does that mean a medium rare steak rapt up in cloth is a women?

how people like this dont wander off a cliff is shocking to me.

[danzig]

Many Christian priests hold the same opinion.
Including the ones from the village where I grew up.
When a 14 year old got raped in my village she was blamed for it by all the Christians because her skirt was too short or something.

No doubt but it is a view that not held by many people nor by many key religious figures atleast here in the US. The day and age of "she was asking for it" by the way she was dressed is for the most part gone in the US so thats why it is suprisingly when it pops up by notable religious leaders even in other countries. You would think we are past this backward thinking.

so does that mean a medium rare steak rapt up in cloth is a women?

how people like this dont wander off a cliff is shocking to me.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be better for civilization as a whole if we lead them to the cliff and gently nudged them.

[Denny Crane!]

I was encouraged by the reaction of the australian governments ministers though and cabinets a number of whom came forward and denounced him stating people had to conform to our society not the other way around.

Peter

[krazykarl]

just to argue symantics, cats would still eat the meat regardless of if it was covered or not.

[Denny Crane!]

Erik it is a fallacy to suggest that a priest in rural africa is comparable to a cleric in Australia, especially with the amount of publicity it got.

Find the Bishop saying it and you have a point.


Peter

[Ummon]

The Qu'ran does not advocate lapidation, yet again it states that women are to be beaten in some cases. The most violence can be found on Hadiths, commentaries to the Qu'ran, and Sharia law.

two words ummon... Jesus Camp. Yes, they are innocent indeed..... wake up. Muslims aren't the only fanatics... if you think that then your just bigoted... or rascist against non-whites... or both.

A notorious internet hoax.

Besides, a muslim worries me either if he is white, black or in-between.

[Miraj]

A notorious internet hoax.

What's a notorious internet hoax?

[mrjesushat]

The Qu'ran does not advocate lapidation, yet again it states that women are to be beaten in some cases. The most violence can be found on Hadiths, commentaries to the Qu'ran, and Sharia law.

That's really great. And you will also admit that violence is heavily discussed, referenced and lauded in the Bible. Moreover, the Catholic notion of the Passion focuses upon a truly awesome amount of punishment and torment inflicted upon one human being. Or God, if you prefer, as irrational as that may seem to some. So we have an equally bloody, equally violent, equally a-modern pair of books. Did you have a point? Because all I can see is that this is an irrational focus upon one religion and its literature, to the exclusion of all others. Given your background and education, this seems unlikely. Please explain how certain forms of applied or interpreted, "Islam" are uniquely violent from other applied or interpreted versions of various religions.

A notorious internet hoax.

A clear effort to ignore evidence which undercuts your beliefs. Surely you would not hasten to prejudge, all over again?

Besides, a muslim worries me either if he is white, black or in-between.

Take care, Ummon. Your prejudices may be showing. This might even be construed as openly bigoted, or in the vernacular, "racist".

[Ummon]

That's really great. And you will also admit that violence is heavily discussed, referenced and lauded in the Bible. Moreover, the Catholic notion of the Passion focuses upon a truly awesome amount of punishment and torment inflicted upon one human being. Or God, if you prefer, as irrational as that may seem to some. So we have an equally bloody, equally violent, equally a-modern pair of books. Did you have a point? Because all I can see is that this is an irrational focus upon one religion and its literature, to the exclusion of all others. Given your background and education, this seems unlikely. Please explain how certain forms of applied or interpreted, "Islam" are uniquely violent from other applied or interpreted versions of various religions.

The suffering of Jesus is suffering willingly accepted to save others (that's the concept of it in Christianism at least). Infact, an oblative sacrifice is an act of nobility, and doesn't recommend nor suggest any violence to the reader. And as Jesus said on the cross (according to the Bible): "Forgive them because they do not know what they are doing".

A clear effort to ignore evidence which undercuts your beliefs. Surely you would not hasten to prejudge, all over again?

Evidence? Exactly, of which evidence are we speaking? And of what?

For reference:

A documentary is a product of fiction. It is cut, mounted, and made into a message according with the intent of its director.

It has to be proven that the documentary is trustworthy, as well. But in any case, it is again not in my interest nor intent to discuss this, as I absolutely do not advocate any form of child brainwashing, real or imaginary. If it is true, good job documentarist.

The problem again is that there is no tenet of christianism acknowledged by even a big minority of Christians which advocates anything like violence on women, or children, or anyone.

On the other hand, we have in the holy book of Islam, a non-superceded, non-ambiguous reference to violence on women.

You use Jesus Camp (which is about certain Christians in a certain place) to divert attention from the systematic aspect of violence in Islam.

Take care, Ummon. Your prejudices may be showing. This might even be construed as openly bigoted, or in the vernacular, "racist".

Quite the opposite. I judge that anyone capable of believing in a book which says what the Qu'ran says, may as well be a dangerous person. The judgement is based on the content of the Qu'ran, not on anything I surmise or suppose about those people. Just the same I would think about someone who tells me "The Mein Kampf is a wonderful book".

In truth, dear mrjesushat, the meager amount of knowledge, scarce level of honesty, and nonexistent trustworthyness (that is, IMHO ) of your points is the only thing which shows.

[mrjesushat]

The suffering of Jesus is suffering willingly accepted to save others (that's the concept of it in Christianism at least). Infact, an oblative sacrifice is an act of nobility, and doesn't recommend nor suggest any violence to the reader. And as Jesus said on the cross (according to the Bible): "Forgive them because they do not know what they are doing".

Nice dodge. You didn't address any of the other cases of Biblical violence, such as (for a simple example) the extermination of the people of Ai, where men, women and children are murdered at the behest of God. And while your interpretation of the suffering of Jesus is very nice, it has nothing to do with the fact that the religion focuses upon pain and the imagery of torment. It's the kind of thing that a psychologist (for instance) might consider indicative of, or primary to, at-risk behavior. Moreover, the whole issue is that you completely avoided dealing with the point of extremism within religions. Just as you take all of Islam to task for the actions and beliefs of extremists, so some others take all of Christianity to task for the existence of, say, Jesus Camp. And for the record, Ummon, documentaries are not necessarily fictional at all. They are, at the least, heavily based in fact. If you are unfamiliar with the definition for "documentary", I'd direct you to the internet's premier question-resolution site, Answers.com. Just type, "documentary" into the search bar. You'll find a variety of versions of the definition, from many reputable sources.

I think perhaps you have confused two close words in English, "documentary" and "docudrama".

Quite the opposite. I judge that anyone capable of believing in a book which says what the Qu'ran says, may as well be a dangerous person. The judgement is based on the content of the Qu'ran, not on anything I surmise or suppose about those people. Just the same I would think about someone who tells me "The Mein Kampf is a wonderful book".

You equate the Koran with the writings of Adolf Hitler. A nice piece of groundless equivocation. But once again, you have failed to sufficiently conceal your prejudices. I advise you to take care, lest some of our Muslim brothers be offended, and report you for your inappropriate excesses.

In truth, dear mrjesushat, the meager amount of knowledge, scarce level of honesty, and nonexistent trustworthyness (that is, IMHO ) of your points is the only thing which shows.

Back to ad hominem so soon? That's not rational debate, Ummon. When will you learn to play nice? And more importantly, is it at all possible to have an honest, logical, open dialectic with you? Because if not, why do you even bother? Is it simply to insult Muslims and Islam? How does Mirage or Sephodwyrm or dude with the Aragorn picture for an avatar in anyway equate to people of supposedly similar faith who make asanine or unenlightened statements? Should I equate you with Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell? What about with Hitler? I mean, he hated a particular religio-ethnic group, too.