Merkel: "Friends don't spy on friends" -- Wait a minute...

[Astaroth]

While it might not have been such a big issue in other countries, Germany was in uproar over US spying in the last few months. Not too long after Snowden's NSA-reveals, new information showed that apparently US intelligence had essentially bribed several German officials and used them as spies to acquire secret information on the German government and what not.

Back then, the outcry in Germany was big -- especially since many Germans and German politicians were already pissed because of the NSA affair -- and Merkel famously stated, "friends don't spy on friends".

Not too much later, many Germans gloated when it became known that the US had been spied on itself, this time by the Israeli secret service. Ironically, the US publicly complained about 'allies spying on each other' and naturally, this resulted in quite a few cynical comments amongst disillusioned Germans.

However, now it gets even better: according to information published in all major German newspapers (ZEIT, Süddeutsche, FAZ etc.), it turns out that the German BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst = federal intelligence agency) intercepted at least one phone call made by Hillary Clinton (when she was secretary of state) and additionally also spied on another NATO country!

So apparently the poor, poor angelic Germans, the innocent little ones who only wanted to be loved by their big American brother and who had been betrayed by 'the Satan (tm)' who dared to spy on them are really not a single bit better when it comes to spying on their allies. Haha, pretty hilarious if you ask me (and I'm German btw).

And before you think it's just a response to the evil, evil American actions -- this happened when Clinton was still in office. Yup. According to the ZEIT article, it's not the first time this has happened, either btw.

Sources:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...newspaper-says
http://www.zeit.de/politik/2014-08/b...oeren-spionage (in German, use google translate)

[Campylobacter jejuni]

Yes, it's perfectly normal for countries to spy on each other, and even within themselves. Being spied on is normal in Washington itself. Merkel certainly knows this. I suspect this was primarily a matter of being forced to react to appease the public, and perhaps a bit of political opportunism, showing the USA that they're not quite the overnation they once were.

[Edelfred]

given her age , the Clinton-Levinsky scandal must have been a serious reason for profound insecurity for poor Hillary .
I offer to keep her out of picture because psychologic researches show that females over 40-50 are turned to cuckoes by infidelities of their partners .
She is insane, but her rank prevents her from tests .

[snuggans]

great post. it sickens me to see Snowden clutching the American flag on the cover of Wired, what a troll. must have taken a break from playing fetch with Putin to take that picture.

[Thorn777]

What nonsense. The "gloating" etc is perfectly justified, being German or American.

And what the "great post" doesnt say is that the phonecall was intercepted by accident according to BND.

[alhoon]

And what the "great post" doesnt say is that the phonecall was intercepted by accident according to BND.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. If BND said so...

Allies spy on allies all the time. The saving grace here is that Germany didn't spy on the USA to the extend USA spied on Germany. Not that they wouldn't if they had the means/reason to do it. USA has more enemies than Germany so it spies more.

[Campylobacter jejuni]

Just because the BND said it doesn't make it true.

[Thorn777]

But its plausible deniability. Isnt that all you posters here care about?

At least a "phonecall being wired" beats the NSA network and its structural workings which only include Germany and the things done there that include corrupting BND officials.

How this is on scale is a mystery to me. But todays "liberals" I guess watched to many spy movies, coupled to their dumbing down educations...

[Campylobacter jejuni]

But its plausible deniability. Isnt that all you posters here care about?

I don't have enough insight into "all the posters here" to make a qualified judgement.

As for me, no. Of course I suppose there's this thing called assumption of innocence, but I am willing to suspend that for a secret service agency. And even if I begrudingly assume innocence, I might just be wrong about that.
But it's definitely not cleard up just because the BND said something.

[Edelfred]

Germany does not have weapon-manufacturing lobby, totally ignoring citizens and starting wars for the sake of profits ,so whatever they have spied on and for is too minor matter,
but any USA spionage is an affront to all human race .

I don't have enough insight into "all the posters here" to make a qualified judgement.
.

wise said

[Heathen Hammer]

But its plausible deniability. Isnt that all you posters here care about?

At least a "phonecall being wired" beats the NSA network and its structural workings which only include Germany and the things done there that include corrupting BND officials.

How this is on scale is a mystery to me. But todays "liberals" I guess watched to many spy movies, coupled to their dumbing down educations...

Indeed. What pro-Americans are forgetting is that it is always nice and cool to spy on others, but not cool when it is you who is being spied on. So accusing Germany of double standards is rather silly, just like a notion of country actually reflecting any standards in it foreign policy. Germany should act out of its national interests - as in preventing foreign spies from spying on Germany, while gathering intelligence on other countries as well.

[Astaroth]

But its plausible deniability. Isnt that all you posters here care about?

Read the article, apparently it's not the first time it has happened. Also, Germany spied on "another NATO country", too.

What call has it been anywhere ?
Germany allows men-bordellos ,could it be that thing ?
sorry , but when name clintons is mentioned the first thing in mind is sexual affairs .

What the heck are you even on about.

So accusing Germany of double standards is rather silly, just like a notion of country actually reflecting any standards in it foreign policy. Germany should act out of its national interests - as in preventing foreign spies from spying on Germany, while gathering intelligence on other countries as well.

You are missing the point. What's remarkable about Germany's reaction to the US spying is not that they complained about it. Duh, nobody likes getting spied on. What's noteworthy is the outrage with which Germany reacted -- a la "how could you, our close allies, our friends, do this to us. how could you hurt us so!" -- especially in the light of these news here.

Everyone spies on each other. The only difference is the magnitude and boldness which depends on 1) the technological abilities and 2) the ruthlessness. Sure, the US might have an edge on Germany in both regards, but that still doesn't give We-spy-too-Germany the right to fake moral outrage about other countries' spying.

[Gaidin]

Everyone spies on each other. The only difference is the magnitude and boldness which depends on 1) the technological abilities and 2) the ruthlessness. Sure, the US might have an edge on Germany in both regards, but that still doesn't give We-spy-too-Germany the right to fake moral outrage about other countries' spying.

All things being equal, you really can't appeal to either 1 or 2 here, because when Merkel's phone was tapped, it was her personal phone, not her State phone. Her State phone is, uhh, slightly more protected. And by slightly I mean, holy mother of god. It doesn't take a lot of technological abilities to wire somebody's personal phone. And anybody that wants to tell me the PM isn't a fair target in these games is naive.

[Heathen Hammer]

You are missing the point. What's remarkable about Germany's reaction to the US spying is not that they complained about it. Duh, nobody likes getting spied on. What's noteworthy is the outrage with which Germany reacted -- a la "how could you, our close allies, our friends, do this to us. how could you hurt us so!" -- especially in the light of these news here.

But they are allied.

Everyone spies on each other. The only difference is the magnitude and boldness which depends on 1) the technological abilities and 2) the ruthlessness. Sure, the US might have an edge on Germany in both regards, but that still doesn't give We-spy-too-Germany the right to fake moral outrage about other countries' spying.

Yes it does. Merkel should blame USA to strengthen her own position. So "fake" moral outrage is justified.

[Edelfred]

What call has it been anywhere ?
Germany allows men-bordellos ,could it be that thing ?
sorry , but when name clintons is mentioned the first thing in mind is sexual affairs .

[ShockBlast]

It has beens said and I`ll say it again, it`s one thing to ear-drop on someone it`s something totally different to infiltrate or buy agents in their secret service.No one said Germans are "angelic" I am sure they do quite a -ton of industrial espionage but let`s not equate what the Germans did to what the Americans did.

[Gaidin]

It has beens said and I`ll say it again, it`s one thing to ear-drop on someone it`s something totally different to infiltrate or buy agents in their secret service.No one said Germans are "angelic" I am sure they do quite a -ton of industrial espionage but let`s not equate what the Germans did to what the Americans did.

Translation: But it's ok the way we do it.

You weren't Spying-spying on Clinton so it's Cool-cool, right?

Just admit that everybody spies on everybody and move the frak on with your life.

[Caesar Germanico]

It has beens said and I`ll say it again, it`s one thing to ear-drop on someone it`s something totally different to infiltrate or buy agents in their secret service.No one said Germans are "angelic" I am sure they do quite a -ton of industrial espionage but let`s not equate what the Germans did to what the Americans did.

Translation: But it's ok the way we do it.

It depends on the way.You can't see the differences between the two cases?

[ShockBlast]

Translation: But it's ok the way we do it. You weren't Spying-spying on Clinton so it's Cool-cool, right? Just admit that everybody spies on everybody and move the frak on with your life.

Of course everyone spies on everyone but what USA did is several orders of magnitude bigger.


USA compromised BND, no other US ally tried to compromise CIA.

[Love Mountain]

Of course everyone spies on everyone but what USA did is several orders of magnitude bigger.


USA compromised BND, no other US ally tried to compromise CIA.

What a total cop out. It's like children accusing each other of who breaks the rules more. Who the cares? Both of you break the rules.