[Tech] Refinement and Balancing Reports for 1.0

[Dresden]

As we get started on working toward our actual release version of the mod (1.0), I wanted a thread where players could leave feedback about small mistakes and general balancing concerns. This thread is not for bug reports (crashes or technical issues) and is not for general feedback about opinions on our content.

What we are looking for in terms of Balancing Reports:

1. Units and Recruitment Issues:

• Does a unit that is worse cost more than a unit that is better?
• Are there duplicate or unnecessary units for factions?
• Are some units underpowered or overpowered for where/when they are unlocked?
• Are there mistakes in the unit descriptions or names?
• Are any units missing textures, their weapons, etc? (not including old Mercenaries and Auxiliaries from previous versions).

2. Campaign AI:

• Based on your difficulty level, how is the AI expanding?
• Does the AI respond properly to the player when engaged in a war?
• Does diplomacy work in a rational manner?
• Any other observations about campaign development or AI behavior?

3. Battle System - This will be overhauled in 1.0. However, leaving observations about unit behaviors and balance can be helpful anyway.


When Leaving Feedback:
1. List the version of the mod you are using (Steam or TWC, if TWC which update).
2. List the Battle and/or Campaign Difficulty you are playing on.

Finally, this is not a place for discussion or argument/debate. I am all for that, but please do it in other threads. I would like to keep this one as simple and clean as possible so we can track the issues easier. Refrain from responding to other people's feedback and simply leave your own observations.

This is not a prelude to 1.0 releasing anytime soon. This is an opportunity for the players to help us focus on issues that we will be changing as we work on 1.0. The release of our mod (1.0) is still a long way off.

[Alu10]

Armenian Cataphract Horse archers are available for Lv2 stables. (Hayasdan) Their stats are wrong, they have mail armour and protected horses but have only 8 more armour than levy horse archers with simple cloth armour. Making them available for Lv3 heavy stables with real stats might be a good thing to do.

Parthian Swordsmen seem to be pretty weak.

Canes Bellici (War dogs) are pretty strong. I often got 500+ kills per war dog unit in a battle.

Scorpios, Polybolos seem to be a bad choice, they dont kill alot of people and they often even miss. Even against simple Fortification walls they do like 2% damage to the wooden wall, making the flaming bolts useless in these battles. They are supposed to have tactical purpose, but they are pretty much useless. Ballistas are okay for walled battles but they are not good at all.

Make the Phalanx units better at killing.

Normal Battle difficulty

[GatoVolador]

0.95g1 N/H
About the two different "Wedge" abilities for cavalry ("Wedge" and "flying wedge"). The flying wedge is obviously more powerfull with no negative modifiers stated, a more compact formation allowing easier maneuvering, and a HUGE mov.speed buff, allowing Armenian noble cataphracts to be faster than light HA (both just walking, haven´t compared them running). Now, Parthia´s cataphracts (camel, normal and royal) all have the "Wedge" ability, while hellenic cataphracts (baktria, seleukidai) have the flying version, which makes them more powerfull than the parthian. Is this intended?
The discrepancy is also in the Hayasdan rooster, where generals have acces to the armenian noble cataphracts and the eastern royal cataphracts (grivpavnar or however it´s written), with the only difference being that the armenians can "fly".
Maybe Wedge should be just for low-mid tier cav, and Flying Wedge for mid-high tier, depending on the faction. Or melee cav/ shock cav, aknowledging the specialization of the latter in charging.

Edit: I have noticed this over all previous versions, starting at 0.85 I think

[vv00d13]

A UNIT ISSUE:
As I play Averni (gauls) I see that upgrading some buildings remove the ability to recruit Archers.

I had the option to recruit archers (but didnt) and then upgraded my buildings. Suddenly I cannot recruit at all. I didn't recruit so the "unit cap" wasn't what blocked me. They have just dissapeared.
This should really be looked over cause it is annoying that you go with a path of recruting archers in one regioen and then they suddenly dissapear.

Seems like only low tech buildings produce archers and high tech don't.

[LoneWolf_Sam]

A UNIT ISSUE:
As I play Averni (gauls) I see that upgrading some buildings remove the ability to recruit Archers.

I had the option to recruit archers (but didnt) and then upgraded my buildings. Suddenly I cannot recruit at all. I didn't recruit so the "unit cap" wasn't what blocked me. They have just dissapeared.
This should really be looked over cause it is annoying that you go with a path of recruting archers in one regioen and then they suddenly dissapear.

Seems like only low tech buildings produce archers and high tech don't.

Could this be because the archers are recruited from the woodworker building line, while the rest of your troops are recruited from the bronze workshop. The level one artisans lodgings allow you to recruit basic units from both the lines as it builds into both.
If you mean they are not recruitable at the higher levels of the woodworker line then this is indeed a problem.

[quaz601]

playing twcenter verison on normal

I understand that dignitaries are now governors and gave much higher numbers but they still spam and use their offensive abilities a lot, is there away to pretty much remove or convert this abilites to only help the parent faction?

[juanplay]

Armenian Nakharars have litle armor compared to their actual appeareance, they should get the same armor of the armoured legionares, and maybe a slight increase in their attack and weapon damage values, as they are they get slaughtered quite easily by the celtic nobles (im not saying they should win a 1 to 1 battle, but they could last a little longer)

[Dangerman]

Armenian Nakharars have litle armor compared to their actual appeareance, they should get the same armor of the armoured legionares, and maybe a slight increase in their attack and weapon damage values, as they are they get slaughtered quite easily by the celtic nobles (im not saying they should win a 1 to 1 battle, but they could last a little longer)
*snip*

Yeah I agree, for a Melee orientated faction their single limited Nakharars are weak compared to other elite Infantry and should at least have their armor stat buffed to Seleucid Royal Thorax swordsmen level. It bothers me a lot how the Praetorians are the best Melee Infantry in game yet historically they were rarely sent out on campaigns (unlike the Byzantinee Varangian Guard) or were not that special at all combat wise. I think either Seleucid Royal Thorax swordsmen or Nakharars should be the best Melee unit in the game and able to best Praetorians (I think they should be just Bodyguards and act as their own and not ub3r units).

[blademaster3090]

as maesysli you can recruit an eastern javelinmen looking unit which is actually low-tier sword inf, there's no name for it though.

also numidian noble cav NEED to be given parthian shot. wth? they are terribly underpowered otherwise.

[Axaios]

makedonian hetaroi (late) have less armor than early hetaroi

[Dresden]

If I deleted your post, it means I have noted down the issue or that it is known. I left some here for future reference.

Please continue to leave feedback, but remember this is primarily about finding incorrect unit names, descriptions, stats, costs, etc. We don't need 10 threads about how a certain faction expands too quickly

[bebop77]

Boii Uisusparos have 26 attack and 75 morale (more then spear nobles), even though they're medium spear unit.

Also Early triari have insane 32 charge bonus.

[quaz601]

Egyptian thorax swords have higher attack than Thorax Legionaires

[spirroouu]

As an addition, pikemen also have a duplicate unit. The hellenic ones.

[spirroouu]

There is a duplicate unit in the Arche roster, the Thorax swordsman get a better version called thorax Legionari which makes the latter useless.
The throwing axemen also don't even wear axes but javelins, which may be on purpose or not?
The Arche Bosphorus horse archers have missing weapon structures.
The Elite Bosphoroi Hoplites are worse than just basic germanic tribesman, same goes for the elite swordsmen.
Siege micromanaging target is false and can shoot way off the circle.
Bosphoran get Hippeis until late game, but they are useless late game as they are bested by Boshporian cavalry.
The Boshoran Pikemen seem to fall like flies, even when the enemy is behind their spears.
The attack formations of the Thorax swordsmen are often messed up and make them form a huge line.
Some texts missing in some instances and on politics screen.
Hellenic infantry largely underpowered, even with 50 melee attack and 80 melee defence on recruitment, they still get bested by most early gallic units.
Sometimes dignitaries get two points to upgrade whilst they should get one, this was a very random occurrence, seemed to happen to spies and heroes too.
I'll be sure to keep this updated, my main focus are the Arche Bosphorus and their hellenic units.

[Matmannen]

There is a duplicate unit in the Arche roster, the Thorax swordsman get a better version called thorax Legionari which makes the latter useless.

I have also seen this. I am pretty sure all hellenic factions have this issue. Perhaps it can be solved by making the thorakitai a level 3 barracks unit and the legionaries a level 4 unit.

[Master.Mind]

The Iceni are getting a cultural affinity bonus with hellenic factions

[Faldor]

Concerning the difference between Thureophoroi/Thorakitai Doriphoroi and Thureos Hoplites/Thorax Hoplites:
Stat-wise both units appear to be quite different, one having a significant advantage against mounted units and the other having a more coherent formation. I haven't tested this in unit vs. unit battles, since I'm having a busy exam period and I think it's more a matter of tactical-variety, but I'd love to point at something I stated before in the suggestion thread.

I understand the Hoplites to be the successors of their early Hoplite counterparts, just as the machairaphoroi "evolve" with every new reform. Then there's this loose-formation spear infantry which is the Thureophoroi/Thorakitai Doriphoroi. My question is if it's somehow legitimate/historical/plausible/possible to make them more peltast-like, or at least make them better at performing a skirmishing role, since I believe such a unit to be lacking in late Hellenic campaigns (other than the Peltasts, which is a partly outdated unit around that time I believe, if not only for its gear). In vanilla there's the Euzonoi replacing the Peltasts in the late game, but somehow I don't mind you guys leaving them out because they looked like weaker versions of their predecessors. My suggestion is thus if you could make an extra unit for skirmishing purposes, or make Thureophoroi (not necessarily also their "evolution", since both appeared simultaneously I believe) more suitable for such a role.
Edit: Lately I started using these two units a lot more and I realized they are indeed suitable for skirmishing purposes, only more melee oriented (which in fact suits my play style, and arguably that of historical Hellenic generals too). Otherwise there's plenty of mercenaries and AOR units to rely upon for actual skirmishing roles, and Peltastai too of course


I think I read something about Basilikoi Peltastai in this thread a while back, so I'll try to make it short regarding them, in case the post is removed and the unit is being dealt with. I'd just love them to be worth their cost, with higher "assault"-capabilities and, most importantly: more stamina. I always find them tiring really fast, whereas they are a relatively lightly-armoured unit meant to be one of the most mobile and dependable units in the Hellenic roster.

There is a duplicate unit in the Arche roster, the Thorax swordsman get a better version called thorax Legionari which makes the latter useless.
Bosphoran get Hippeis until late game, but they are useless late game as they are bested by Boshporian cavalry.

@ spirroouu: I don't think every predecessor should be removed/made unavailable once a better evolution is available. Indeed the Legionarioi are stronger than the ordinary Thorakitai, but they have a unit-limit to compensate for their strength, and they cost more. This makes both units perfectly useful and compatible throughout the entire campaign, IMO they are no duplicates at all. In the current DeI-versions even the Thorakitai's predecessors still are recruitable; the Thureophoroi Machiaraphoroi. Between these units there's even fewer difference, but still it's more immersive to have both units exist simultaneously (one is more heavily-armored than the other, both were still used around the time…).

Hellenic infantry largely underpowered, even with 50 melee attack and 80 melee defence on recruitment, they still get bested by most early gallic units.

After playing an Antigonid campaign until over 200 turns, however much I enjoyed it, this really is true. Even after some of my (sword)units had had the best possible training and equipment + general bonuses, they were bested by almost every other culture out there. The only units not having too much casualties every battle were my pikemen (because I kept them out of missile fire and with flanks secure), I think every professional Hellenic swordsman unit is in need of a serious boost in stats.

Edit: an example of this (which I can remember well because of its repetitive occurrence) is my two units Basilikoi Peltastai on the right flank fighting one unit of Boii mid-tier swordsmen, almost encircling it, getting more casualties than this one unit (I'm talking about the very first confrontation in battle, no tiredness yet). I thus always had to reinforce that particular skirmish (sometimes it were two units, sometimes a high-tier unit, but mostly just one simple Boii unit because I knew I shouldn't make it to hard for my guys) with my 3 units Hetairoi, and even then it would take quite a while to finally root that one unit.

And indeed Early Antigonid Hetairoi have more armor than the Late ones (which have semi-cataphract armor)

[spirroouu]

@ spirroouu: I don't think every predecessor should be removed/made unavailable once a better evolution is available. Indeed the Legionarioi are stronger than the ordinary Thorakitai, but they have a unit-limit to compensate for their strength, and they cost more. This makes both units perfectly useful and compatible throughout the entire campaign, IMO they are no duplicates at all. In the current DeI-versions even the Thorakitai's predecessors still are recruitable; the Thureophoroi Machiaraphoroi. Between these units there's even fewer difference, but still it's more immersive to have both units exist simultaneously (one is more heavily-armored than the other, both were still used around the time…).

I do agree but the Legionari are stronger in all stats and have multiple stances they can take, they are not capped either, I think you are thinking abour other units than I am.
I am talking about the Thorax Swordsman being weaker in most stats and not better in any than the Thorax Legionari Swordsman. I think you mean the difference between the elite Thorax Legionari and the regular Legionari, I'll post some screenshots:





The missing texts: My DEI is updated and well and I have no other mods whatsoever.



I have it in some other cities too. Also noticed some of the unit skills showing the colour codes: [cl:green] or smth like that.

[Faldor]

I do agree but the Legionari are stronger in all stats and have multiple stances they can take, they are not capped either, I think you are thinking abour other units than I am.
I am talking about the Thorax Swordsman being weaker in most stats and not better in any than the Thorax Legionari Swordsman. I think you mean the difference between the elite Thorax Legionari and the regular Legionari

The thorax phalangite unit pair could indeed be a bug, but it could well be intended that these are both available (one being Bosporan-Hellenic, the other being purely Hellenic… solely an aesthetically difference that is). The difference between Thorakitai and Thorakitai Legionarioi really is intentional (I did mean these two units), and what I mean by difference also concerns the unit cap (the first has none, the other can have a maximum of 5 in an army), the price (20 more expensive in upkeep), indeed the strength and abilities, and the equipment (cloaks/no cloaks, helmets, better armor, boots/chin guards…). Basically it comes down to this: one is a regular infantry unit, the other is a capped elite unit. I don't see why any of the two units should be removed, they both serve their purpose.

It all depends on one's play style of course, but I for one like to role play just a bit in my campaigns, so I don't mind a little variation in my roster (if you do you can just ignore any units you find redundant). Even from a purely gameplay-view one can argue that you shouldn't have armies filled with elites only (that's the reason for unit caps I think). Anyway there's no need for a discussion in this thread (and I know this to be a frequent and probably annoying kind of discussion when the team asks for feedback), the devs will no doubt know best what to do with their mod and I'm sure until 1.0 they will have rooted out any real bugs out there