Pikes beyond useless....

[Mihail]

I'm having massive problems with the current version of DEI(haven't played in awhile and forget the last version of dei I played it was before the new shield pack for the greeks), my pikes just aren't doing anything before they weren't amazing, but they were able to kill atleast 100 enemies per unit, now the enemy will just sit in front of them all day long, I've literally pinned units into 4 walls of pikes and couldn't do anything to them, until they eventually got bored and ran away.

I understand they are very much a stationary hold the line sort of unit, but they are basically worthless to the point where in my current campaign as Ptolemy I've basically reduced the amount of pikes I have in my army to 3 merely to cover my archers, I understand the hammer and anvil approach that the mod wants them to be which in my opinion it already was, but the effectiveness of doing so currently has much to be desired when there are far more effective tactics which I can do which are efficient without even needing pikes to begin with, but If I'm starting down that path, why am I playing as the Greeks at all at that point which the answer is because I only play as them.

I can't be alone in these thoughts can I?

[Noone likes Thebes:(]

Hmmm.

Even back in the heyday I never really got that many kills with pikes unless it was a silly siege defense. Most of the kills were always to the cavalry and light infantry when I would play with a Macedonian approach.

Thing is, the majority (sometimes the great majority when it comes to heavy infantry) are killed in the rout after they've broken and pikes are terrible at killing broken enemies, though they're good at wearing them down and breaking them. I've never really seen the badass bulldozer pike advances that we all dream of in Total war games, they're just not programed like that no matter what mods do. A Pike wall is really just best at eating poor melee infantry while taking minimal losses and holding the line against super heavy infantry without horribly dieing (like most other infantry will). I myself only use around 3 pikes these days if I play any Greek faction or as Carthage. When I get around to playing the successors again, I'll try more pikes to see how they do.

[FlashHeart07]

And patch 14 have caused some bugs with hoplites and maybe also pikes. Just remember that units will be balanced for version 1.0

[SeaNNyT]

Is there currently a submod that fixes this?

It is definitely something that should be readdressed when they re-balance all the units and stats before a 1.0 release. Many people have been complaining about this problem and they should consider revamping the pike units.

[Litharion]

I actually slightly increased the pike damage for 0.95, but it seems like pike units still are fairly week. With 1.0 we will balance the whole battle aspect including pikemen.

[SeaNNyT]

I actually slightly increased the pike damage for 0.95, but it seems like pike units still are fairly week. With 1.0 we will balance the whole battle aspect including pikemen.

Good to hear. I actually want to use factions whose focus was pikemen again.

[SuRReaL88]

I wouldn't say its about how many kills they should get, damage or anything like that, after all it was a Unit used to grind down the enemy and was probably the best Ancient Unit for efficiency in terms of kills to deaths because the Phalangite (Pikemen) was incredibly hard to break down from the front and DeI should replicate that.

In fact it was probably the hardest Ancient unit to break from frontal attack, the best defensive unit of the ancient world and was the foundation and core of Alexander's counter attack tactics. Macedonia actually adapted and redeveloped the Phalangite to the so-called sarissaphoroi ("sarissa-bearers") and had a tactical advantage over other phalangites because of their extremely long pikes known as sarissas. These soldiers and their sarissas were mainly developed by Philip II of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great as an expansion on and counter to the hoplites of Ancient Greece.

From wiki:

Phalangites had an advantage over other spearmen of ancient times due most notably to their massive sarissas. Under Alexander the Great the sarissas would have reached a length of 18 feet (5.5 m). They used a shield around 2 feet (60 cm) in diameter, and wore a breastplate and a helmet for armor. They also carried a dagger as a secondary weapon, but due to its length of around 10 inches (25 cm), it was rarely used in combat. Phalangites were nearly impregnable from the front because of the massive length of their pikes, but they were tactically cumbersome and were vulnerable from the sides because a phalangite could not turn quickly with the giant sarissa. The phalangite's pike, the sarissa, was perceived as the Macedonian counter-part to the famed Greek Doru carried by all Greek Hoplites, which was sturdier, heavier, and shorter than the Macedonian sarissa. The Greek hoplite was also more heavily armored, had a larger, sturdier shield, and as mentioned before, their spears were heavier and sturdier, which meant more impact damage upon thrust. However,the Macedonian sarrisa was 15 feet in length as opposed to the Greek Doru, which was 6 feet long. Additionally, the Macedonians' shields allowed for more defensive maneuvers by the phalanx, as the sarrisa was a 2-handed weapon and the Macedonian shield could be strapped onto the phalangite's arm to provide an effective defense while not compromising the unit's offensive punch.

[Fingonar]

They are until you realise pikes have no collision and you can sit in fortify with barricades and have them attack through the forts walls/barricades. This also gives them pretty much ranged immunity. It's also incredably cheasy and cheap of course but hey :p.

[Summary]

I'm having massive problems with the current version of DEI(haven't played in awhile and forget the last version of dei I played it was before the new shield pack for the greeks), my pikes just aren't doing anything before they weren't amazing, but they were able to kill atleast 100 enemies per unit, now the enemy will just sit in front of them all day long, I've literally pinned units into 4 walls of pikes and couldn't do anything to them, until they eventually got bored and ran away.

I understand they are very much a stationary hold the line sort of unit, but they are basically worthless to the point where in my current campaign as Ptolemy I've basically reduced the amount of pikes I have in my army to 3 merely to cover my archers, I understand the hammer and anvil approach that the mod wants them to be which in my opinion it already was, but the effectiveness of doing so currently has much to be desired when there are far more effective tactics which I can do which are efficient without even needing pikes to begin with, but If I'm starting down that path, why am I playing as the Greeks at all at that point which the answer is because I only play as them.

I can't be alone in these thoughts can I?

There is a nice balance to the game so far with the exception of a few units like pikes and hoplites. Although the extent in hoplites is not as severe as in pikes. Currently, I do not recruit pikes nor am I excited while playing a Hellenic faction to unlock pikes through reforms, because hoplites are simply better. This doesn't add considering how pikes quick grew as the core unit considering its success rate against a hoplite.

The thing people miss out here is the tactics used at the time. Pikes and hoplites were used in phalanx, a straight line, the more men you had the longer your line or the deeper your ranks, so either way, numerical superiority is always welcome. Straight line formations would clash in a skirmish of taking jabs at each other (not the shield crunching pushing depicted in movies, but kind of like a fencing match, where you maintain your distance and thrust towards a weakness or an opening).

In this way hoplites lost out to pikes due to the obvious disparity in reach when looking at the dory (hoplite spear 2.7 m) and the sarissa (pike 6.0 m). So in a head to head clash pikes triumph over hoplites. However, when flanked and in loose formation and close quarters, hoplites triumph over pikes.

Now enter the Romans. They use hoplite phalanx like the Greeks which they learnt from the Etruscans. Then during the Samnite Wars they realized the disadvantage due to immobility in the phalanx formation. So, they adopted the Samnite manipular formation. They still fought with spears and circular shields and in phalanx formations but the manipular formation was a disjointed formation so it was known as the "phalanx with joints". This is where the army had layers which were used to respond quickly to a situation, than a straight line could. It was very flexible.

Eventually the wars fought by the Romans against the Barbarians saw the scutum (an evolution of the Barbarian Theuros Spear). Romans adopted Barbarian chain mail armor which was more commonly used than the Imperial segmentata which was expensive to make and hence, reserved only for nobility and elites. Romans also adopted the Gladius Hispaniensis from the Celtiberians during the conquest of Hispania.

The result being, mobility of the Roman troops and their responsive was far greater than any formation ever witnessed. From the front pikes still were apex killing machines, followed by hoplites and then other other infantry with an advantage of reach. But whats, the use of the front when an enemy can just as easily run and attack your sides and rear?

Pikes in the game are boring, you will be lucky if you get kills amounting to 2-digit figures in an hour long battle. This doesn't realistically represent pikes. I recommended huge bonus for pike and hoplite when in phalanx formation and huge penalties when they are flanked in phalanx formation.

Hellenic factions lack access to decent sword infantry, so I restrict myself to hoplites as pikes are useless (even when I play as Macedon, I know right?). And the best I can do to counter hoplites being dead slow is use the Samnite manipular formation or "phalanx with joints" and this proves to be the most effective tactic with Hellenic factions currently.

[FlashHeart07]

Havent tested it with the new version of DeI but I have experienced pikemen grind legionaries into the dust. Concerning the early romans. I believe they used swords before they faced the spanish tribes, not the gladius but a short sword of perhaps greek or samnite style. The question about the role of pikemen is a biig topic here on the forum. Should they destroy the romans from the front as I understand some of you suggest or should they be more of a fixing force? Pikes only had a real advantage on flat plains, the moment they hit uneven ground their formation would begin to break and gaps would appear. As far as I know this is perhaps not possible to recreate in game. My units dont pour into any gaps and get into melee combat they are just kept at bay.

[Alu10]

yeah we all know that stuff. but it looks unrealistic that, when the phalanx unit attacks, nobody dies. nobody gets hurt. its a damn spear (yes the thrust damage is low but it can kill) watching phalanx units is boring too.. all i do with phalanx army: make a line, wait for the enemy. secure the flanks by remaking phalanx walls. then when everyone fights, come with the cav and or shock infantry around the left and right and attack them in the back. that gets boring really fast.

[FlashHeart07]

I totally agree with you but some seem to have the impression that they should mow down everything in front of them and some believe that the romans should mow down everything.
If you use the PFM you can try and play around with the stats for pikemen and see if you cant hit a point where they are tolerable to play with. That way the developers can get some ideas on how to best balance them according to other units. So far all units in the game, not only pikes can be used as a fixing force while you flank the AI.

[Gothic]

I have a different experience than most people here. First let me specify that i play on Normal battle difficulty.

Playing as Baktria, I have conquered half the world map using pretty much the same army style the whole way: 7-8 phalanx pike units, 4 swordsmen (first thureophohori, then thorakitai), 4 archers/slingers, rest cavalry/elephants.

Swords cover the pike line's immediate flanks with their massive weapon deadliness and javelin area throw abilities. Elephants/cavalry help secure the flanks outside of the swords, while the archers deal damage from the safety behind the pike line. Sometimes the archers can circle out to the flanks too to outflank enemies outflanking my swords, in case my horse/elephants are tied up elsewhere. Once flanks are secure, all my flanking forces (that is - everyone except the pike line) circle around and hammer the enemy against the pike anvil. Once the enemy infantry starts routing, whichever of my cavalry is lightest will chase down routers to prevent them from rallying. My sword units deal enormous amount of damage to the units pinned against my pikes.

In all this, the pike line is pivotal. Usually, each pike unit get perhaps 50 kills during a 50 minute battle. But their job is to allow the others to deal the damage. Archers usually get 120-150 kills each, swords about the same, while the horse/elephants rack up 300 minimum, and more usually around 500 (i think my record on one unit was close to 800 kills).

The one downside to all this, is that it's difficult to keep units in reserve - they all have their role to fill right from the start and i usually do need 2 sword units on each flank from the get go.

Overall, it seems to work as intended to me.

[Tundra98]

it is pretty ridiculous to see the enemy just bouncing when they reach the spears, at the end pikemen get 50 kills, what? well in 1.0 units will be balanced, i am waiting for that patch to play DeI, i've played it in 0.7-0.8, and i liked it, but then the pike thing turned me off

[SuRReaL88]

it is pretty ridiculous to see the enemy just bouncing when they reach the spears, at the end pikemen get 50 kills, what? well in 1.0 units will be balanced, i am waiting for that patch to play DeI, i've played it in 0.7-0.8, and i liked it, but then the pike thing turned me off

What is your current problem with Pikemen Tundra? You feel Pikemen are too weak or over powered?

[Tundra98]

What is your current problem with Pikemen Tundra? You feel Pikemen are too weak or over powered?

weak, definitely weak. Op? they just hold people in line, and they are just absolutely MURDERED by prolonged skirmisher fire. and they dont get any god damn kills

[Highwayleopard]

TBH I'm finding pikemen to be pretty amazing in my epirote campaign. I've conquered greece and the southern portion of thracia at the moment, and am taking my time and plodding along, but even the levy pikemen were amazing against the spartans. Yeah, they didn't kill many. They pinned them in place while I got my skirmishers into their rear with javelins, followed by a charge, along with my elephants. While they -could- be stronger, and likely will be more balanced in 1.0, I'm finding them perfectly viable at the moment.

[BunnyPoopCereal]

TBH I'm finding pikemen to be pretty amazing in my epirote campaign. I've conquered greece and the southern portion of thracia at the moment, and am taking my time and plodding along, but even the levy pikemen were amazing against the spartans. Yeah, they didn't kill many. They pinned them in place while I got my skirmishers into their rear with javelins, followed by a charge, along with my elephants. While they -could- be stronger, and likely will be more balanced in 1.0, I'm finding them perfectly viable at the moment.

That's exactly what they are used for, to hold the line long enough for your flanking units to get in to place.

[Ygraine]

Totally agree! Pikes used to be a tad too strong, but now they're too weak. Looking forward to 1.0 if they get a revamp like Litharion mentions!

[Ano2]

Whilst 1.0 will address the large number of balance issues I still don't see pikes getting all that many kills. As BunnyPoopCereal points out, they aren't meant to be a killing unit, just a pinning one.