[Force Diplomacy] Has someone already written a script for M2:TW?

[QuintusSertorius]

One of the first things I'll be doing before playing EBII is, I hope, installing a Force Diplomacy script, just in case the AI gets silly. Is there already one for Medieval 2: Total War?

[Voice of Treason]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Diplomacy-v1-2

The talented Withwnar has made tutorial/script...but it does require a bit of manual self sufficiency/cut n' paste to implement.
(I've personally used it once for an Early Medieval mod and it worked fine)

..though it would be nice if a "Forced Diplomacy" script, if not already, is included for official release...

[Menidas]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Diplomacy-v1-2

The talented Withwnar has made tutorial/script...but it does require a bit of manual self sufficiency/cut n' paste to implement.
(I've personally used it once for an Early Medieval mod and it worked fine)

..though it would be nice if a "Forced Diplomacy" script, if not already, is included for official release...

Thanks for sharing this! I've been hoping for a mod like this to float around. It certainly helps with role-playing during a campaign.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

I was thinking this very thing, just this morning, just in case I find something crazy going on I don't like

[Sar1n]

Force diplomacy might be good in RTW where AI was in a "Total War" state, meaning your neighbors will eventually attack you.

That is not the case of M2TW. You can maintain a peaceful relations, even alliance with your neighbors, so force diplomacy is unnecessary.

[Menidas]

Force diplomacy might be good in RTW where AI was in a "Total War" state, meaning your neighbors will eventually attack you.

That is not the case of M2TW. You can maintain a peaceful relations, even alliance with your neighbors, so force diplomacy is unnecessary.

I'm tempted to agree mostly, but I've still seen some unreasonable/unrealistic decision being taken by the AI in M2TW. I suppose it all depends on ones playstyle - I do enjoy an unpredictable AI at times, but sometimes I prefer to have a way to control things if I feel they go against reason or the role-play / immersion I want to achieve.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm tempted to agree mostly, but I've still seen some unreasonable/unrealistic decision being taken by the AI in M2TW. I suppose it all depends on ones playstyle - I do enjoy an unpredictable AI at times, but sometimes I prefer to have a way to control things if I feel they go against reason or the role-play / immersion I want to achieve.

Agreed. If I've destroyed every army the AI faction has in the field and have their capital under siege (though have no intention of taking it, just for leverage), they'd better be willing to agree to a ceasefire with (a sensible) tribute, or that's just ridiculous.

[Voice of Treason]

Though Vanilla MED II is (possibly) more amenable than its Rome predecessor...there are usually infinite” tweakable” variables with MED II Mods, everything from standing modifiers in descr_diplomacy.xml to min/max entries and floats in descr_campaign_ ai _db.xml etc etc.


Not to disparage a mod before it’s even released, but even rarer than finding a perfect, holistically balanced mod on first go...is finding a perfect, holistically balanced mod that’s suitable to your individual playing style, for example...2TPY?...4 TPY?...or maybe 12TPY..ah but how many console-commanded season_winters in the script?...0 Turn recruitment or 1 Turn...there are as many various individual preferences and options as there are individual players.


Another factor, and again this not to discredit the dedication of mod teams, is sometimes that modders, with the infinite complexities in making the game (broke?/fix it now/restart/play ad nauseum), sometimes don’t have the simple luxury of playing a complete play-through until long after the mod (and hotfixes and patches) are released...Sometimes the luxury of taking an impartial step back and just playing through a complete campaign for fun is denied them.


Therefore, though “Forced Diplomacy” is not ineffable (it still relies upon elements of fair play to activate some options) it is exceedingly beneficial for preventing a hard fought campaign from deteriorating or being abandoned in frustration...by options like demanding settlements from the dominant faction, for a fee, then destroying the buildings and gifting them back (to stymie their progress)...or creating buffer states..or demanding cash from a dominant faction and gifting to a poorer faction etc . etc.


Bare in mind, there are beneficial decisions a player can make FOR THE BENEFIT OF A STUBBORN AI.

Only a fool cheats himself by "Blitzkrieg-ing" a campaign (unless his AI suddenly becomes sentient and self-aware)


Ultimately, NO ONE IS INSISTING the EBII team include FD upon pain of death.

The Withwnar link is there for whoever wishes to (try) and implement it.

Secondly, there is no guarantee it will even work or is compatible with EBII’s scripts and developments (until the mod is out)



BUT, the important fact, is not to be too quick to disparage the FD option, for some reasons stated above...

[Menidas]

[...]

Therefore, though “Forced Diplomacy” is not ineffable (it still relies upon elements of fair play to activate some options) it is exceedingly beneficial from preventing a hard fought campaign from deteriorating or being abandoned in frustration...by options like demanding settlements from the dominant faction, for a fee, then destroying the buildings and gifting them back (to stymie their progress)...or creating buffer states..or demanding cash from a dominant faction and gifting to a poorer faction etc . etc.

[...]

BUT, the important fact, is not to be too quick to disparage the FD option, for some reasons stated above...

Very well put, that's exactly what FD is about in my opinion. It's not about cheating at all, at times FD can even be used against one's own advantage. For me it's all about making the game (and the way it enfolds) more believable.

[QuintusSertorius]

Indeed, I never used FD to benefit myself in terms of stealing provinces I wanted without a fight or the like. I did use it to prevent AI factions being killed (and thus creating hegemonic super-factions) and to make beaten factions accept peace so they could rebuild, rather than continue to waste resources fighting me.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

Yes me too, I've actually used FD to my disadvantage, bolstering the Parthia, and Ptolemaic kingdoms. But also Roman Republic with a view to face the expansionist republic later, perhaps my own Magnesia!

[nein]

Forced Alliance script has been around for awhile, first saw it in broken crescent. Makes it impossible for the AI to attack allies, Third Age is another example of this being implemented.

[QuintusSertorius]

Forced Alliance script has been around for awhile, first saw it in broken crescent. Makes it impossible for the AI to attack allies, Third Age is another example of this being implemented.

That's not Force Diplomacy, that's one very narrow function of a Force Diplomacy script.

More important to me is being able to make the AI accept ceasefires, especially if the military and diplomacy AI now talk to each other in M2TW's campaign AI.

[Voice of Treason]

Concerning the generic Forced Diplomacy versus a Forced Alliances (like a TATW style) script...

The “forced alliance” is clever and works well...BUT...ultimately, a Total War game/AI programme is engineered toward a final surviving faction’s dominance. That is its essence. Its basic purpose is that essentially there is a sole, ultimate winner at the end.

The problem with “forced alliance” is it doesn’t always allow the AI to think holistically and breathe, especially towards the late campaign. It poses extra encumbrances for it.

Remember, The AI is not just thinking for faction A...then a separate AI thinking for Faction B then a new AI thinking for Faction C etc.
Though the AI is just (for arguments sake) a script following protocol, actually it is “thinking” for every other unseen faction which is not the player, in a sequence, and structured towards finally “winning”. (ideally)

Therefore, I am always wary of anything that just “locks” or restricts the AI’s ability to react (in ways unseen by a human opponent) FOR EACH TURN INDEPENDENTLY. (like the FA script)

A human opponent may be able to anticipate/and react to "forced alliance" but the AI may be restricted in its decisions by the extra element of (in theory/ internal mechanisms) Taking a turn to recruit a diplomat...moving him to abandoned faction...breaking the alliance...then declaring war. etc

With “Forced Diplomacy” you can “Force Peace”, Yet on the very next turn the AI is capable of simply breaking that peace. (to allow its decisions, which may not be for the actual two diplomatic factions but others later in its sequence) to go unimpeded.
(Yes, it is annoying when it does that, but give the AI the benefit of the doubt. It must have a reason or be planning something..???)

I always feel unnecessary locking of scripts for prolonged periods of peace (the FA script) ultimately leads to more CTD’s and problems. Remember,it’s supposed to be TOTAL WAR.

I feel a Forced Diplomacy script, not a Forced Alliances script is the lesser of the two evils, for instant AI reaction purposes, and a better overall game-play option.

Excuse my poor, basic "terminology"...but I think/hope this makes sense and can be understood

[Menidas]

[...]

I always feel unnecessary locking of scripts for prolonged periods of peace (the FA script) ultimately leads to more CTD’s and problems. Remember,it’s supposed to be TOTAL WAR.

I feel a Forced Diplomacy script, not a Forced Alliances script is the lesser of the two evils, for instant AI reaction purposes, and a better overall game-play option.

[...]

I'm tempted to agree, albeit that I think the forced alliances system was well used in TATW. However, for a game like EB II this is not suitable in my opinion, as it would take away from the intended gameplay decision that everything's possible once a campaign has started and history is running it's own, alternative course. Forcing certain factions to in a permanent alliance would completely skew with this setup and quite possibly also mess with the balance of power.

Forced diplomancy on the other hand is quite useful -depending on one's playstyle of course - and I wouldn't call it the lesser of two evils. In fact I would go so far to say that it can immensely enrich one's play experience if it's used carefully and with the sole intention of generating a believable role-play decision between two factions. Immersion is the key here. But I've finished numerous campaigns on EB I without FD as well - so both is more than possible. It's 100% personal preference.

[Wulfburk]

Forced Alliance script is only good for LOTR:TW / TA:TW, where obviously pretty much NO ONE wants to see Gondor vs Rohan and etc...

[QuintusSertorius]

If Forced Alliances requires a diplomat to formally declare war, then an easy way to keep the AI at bay is to ensure you have sufficient assassins to kill any diplomats who arrive in your territory.

I used that a few times to prolong wars between AI factions when I was meddling without invading. Keep some assassins to support your spies by sabotaging things and killing diplomats who might come to broker a ceasefire.

[QuintusSertorius]

To be honest, I wouldn't play even EB without Force Diplomacy, the diplomacy AI in RTW is too stupid and annoying. It's the mindlessness of the way it will attack you with something pathetic when they're not even ready for you, even if they can see you have a good army in the region (but not garrisoning the province capital). Or treat you like dirt when you've completely humiliated them on the battlefield, slaughtering all they've sent in their defense, yet they think the war should continue.

The problem is this silly, ahistorical notion of total war that seems to have been written into the AI.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'll be taking another look at this when I get back to my gaming machine (on my laptop on the other side of the country right now).

[Sarkiss]

sorry, i havent read the whole thread, not sure it was mentioned already. but afaik M2TW AI can be modded to a far greater extend than the RTW. try Taiji's DLV BB. its got 'Trusted Ally' feature and here is what it does:

Trusted Allies
- Friends reveal info about goings on at their cities and forts
- They're extremely unlikely to stab you in the back
- Even had them send me gifts and attack enemies besieging my cities.
- Rewrote AI, thoroughly revised diplomacy, wrote a massive script, etc.

not sure if EB devs are aware of these modifications, would be nice if they are! it definitely works. i played as Spain for over a decade (its got 4tpy) and my trusted ally Potugal never backstabbed me even when I was militarily weaker than them. we both fought Moors (and indies). a very nice change from the usual AI stupidity.