Good to hear!
Good to hear!
Will the death company be present for milan. Now, I know what you're thinking: "but it's 1212, the death company was formed with barbarossa, never to be formed again". In fact during the whole svevian (or staufen) period of trying to control italy, there were multiple lombard leagues and there were multiple times the "death company" formed, altough it was more as a symbolic gesture and, of course, for the glory that was reminded by the victory at legnano. It ceased to be a "special" unit of men who would fight to the death (contested) and more as a banner or title someone would wear. Now why add this in if it wasn't a unbreakable special unit? Simple, to make milan have a unique and somewhat historical unit in it's army. Now I know the mod is total historical accuracy first then diversified rosters, but the fact is that Milan doesn't have a unique roster. We only have the carrocio and the death company. No special archers, no strong marine core, not good cavalry, no great victories (like that of bologna) from which we can extrapolate particular strenghts of a faction and no unit that is substantially different from the rest of the italian peninsula except for the death company (since many cities used the carrocio and even bologna is famed for having one). This unit isn't historically inaccurate, but it isn't a famed core of troops like genoese crossbowmen.
As a Milanese, I'd hate having left out one of the only iconic milanese units and instead have generic italian/mercenary roster.
As for the papal states, I think there should be the noble houses of the orsini and colonna families. They would add some knights and some "men of honor" (uomini d'onore) who would act like a sort of mafia like goverment and actually influenced the earliest papacy during the year 1000. Their feud was a matter of concern as violence between the families lasted until the renaissance and was one (of many) weaknesses the pope (and therefore the church) had.
As for florence, if you haven't done them yet, I suggest that, not only should there be ghibbeline and guelf units, but also white guelfs and black guelfs units as the city became divided again and these 2 factions fought against each other, (dante was a white guelf and he hated the blacks, almost for his thought to join the ghibbeline side of things) Dante was also a military commander and politician (so maybe genral unit, but I think not, as there have been much better generals). Also florence (at the beginning) had a mix of old noble families who were more militaristic and had massive towers built inside the city, but also (with a new law passed by Vieri de cerchi) the greater families had to join the arti (guilds) or be left out of all politics. Some joined but some prefered exile, and this is where most of the famous renaissance families came to existence as the old nobility was supplanted by the new nobility, like the pazzi or the medici. Famously, the Black where lead by corso donati (dante will have fun with him in the divine commedy) and the whites by Vieri de cerchi. This will divide florence and it's families in donatists and cerchists in a power struggle. So strong swordsmen and good cav (by italian stadard) as they had both lots of noble families and merchant families to present a strong infantry and some what decent cav. (if you want I can tell you more on medieval florence as I have a very good book on them.)
Pisa. Now pisa doesn't have special units that I can think of, (maybe some sardinian units) but it has probably some of the most badass and cruel history of italy. It's the scotland of italian cities. It has very "special" men. First of all it had Ugolino della gherardesca which lead pisa during a time (right after the battle of the meloria) in wich it had a massive coalition against it. He managed to save pisa by selling it's outlying forts to various states to break up the coalition. this. was. not. liked. by. the. pisans. And after escapin the city he was tricked by the bishop of pisa Ruggieri degli ubaldini to come back as he wanted peace for the city. What happened though was that the upper class with the bishop took control of the city, imprisoned him and his children, plus other male family members (his nephews) and they starved them to death. He then took control of the city. Another famous Pisan was uggocione della faggiuola. At this time Pisa was at a " me moment" as it was the only city who helped HRE emperor Henry VII against pisa and naples, and now that his expedition failed, they were being assaulted by both the king of naples and florence (who by now was much more important than pisa). Enter ugoccione della fagiuola. He managed to win 2 battles against pisas enemies with many less men. He first beat them at the battle of Montecatini (in whic he had less then a third of the troops and florence/naples had 60 000 men) and then, 4 days later he dealt them another blow. In fact florence was itself by this time and started hating god (as if they ever worshiped other than their money tsk) for letting the pisans win. In the end though, as macchiavelli puts it, he was great warrior and a bad politician so he lost his control of pisa. Then the city went under many rulers, in particular the visconti of pisa family. (btw if you want the names of these towns noble families I've got a great book covering the period in italy
Wasn't Milan supposed to be everybody's favorite armour exporter in Europe during the late 14th and into the 15th century? I wouldn't mind there being a Company of Death if there are some vague proof of it near or during 1212 A.D.
Do you have any additional sources on the Company of Death? I'm trying to get beyond looking at Wikipedia, but I thought this part was interesting.
It makes it sound like the Milanese used some sort of make shift war chariot. Italian armies using large war wagons outfitted with scythes. That would really make the Italian armies seem exotic.Informed of the Emperor's coming, the Milanese (authorities) commanded to prepare the weapons to resist him. And a company ("societas") is made of nine hundred chosen men, fighting on great horses, who swear that no one would have fled from the battlefield for fear of death and they would not allow anyone to betray the Municipality of Milan, and also they swore that they would have taken every day to the battlefield to fight against the Emperor. At that point, the Municipality chose the weapons and the banner, and a ring was given in hand to each one of these men and they were recruited as knights in the pay of the City, so that if anyone had fled he would rightly have been killed. Head of this company was Alberto da Giussano, who carried the banner of the City. Then came another company made of chosen soldiers on foot, for the custody of the Carroccio, and all of them swore they would rather die than flee from the battlefield. And three hundred battle wagons ("vessels") are manufactured and for each one there were six horses covered (by armour), dragging the vehicle. In every wagon there were ten men moving sickles to cut grass meadows, to cut hostiles as sailors move the oars: it was a terrible equipment against the enemies.
Last edited by Slytacular; November 25, 2017 at 09:31 PM.
I've got great books on the period, mostly the "italia dei comuni" by Montanelli wich discusses about italy between the year 1000-1300 and another book "Dante e il suo secolo" wich talks about italy during dan'tes time around 1300s and beyond
about the scythe chariots, there are accounts but it's hard to verify them.
Yeah, mind listing the evidence for the company of death? Are they supposed to be a sort of men-at-arms sort of group, or are they more like commoners outfitted by the state to take role of being heavy cavalry? That or it could be an additional unit of renowned knights that are uniformed and seemingly equipped by the city.
of course. The book "l'italia dei comuni" (italy of the communes) by Montanelli talks about them. They were citizens of milan who volunteered to never surrender and to fight to the death (altough I can recall that they broke this vow a few times), so they were the main holding line against fredericks barbarossa's cav, as the also held the carrocio. They were spear infantry and cav/light cav who, at first anyone could volunteer, but afterwards became clear that it was a prestigious title to be part of this group so it later became heavy "knights" (as Milan was a city state, it was mostly rich merchant sons who could afford armor. And infantry became sort of young volunteers and glory hounds who joined. They had skull emblem on their shield and armour and clothes and standard (death company after all, lol)
For florence, adding to everything i said before, I suggest a special unit of pikes and arquebusiers called "the bande nere" wich was a mercenary company who was called, "of the black bands" because in mourning for pope leo X. They were led by the condottiere Giovanni dalle bande nere and were considered the finest mercenary company of that time. A bit late period, but still pretty nice.
As for the papal states, i suggest merchant knights from umbria who had also a lot of communes, that had rivalries, and amazing defensive position because of the mountains, and they had also saint. francis who was a knight of assisi and who fought, and lost to perugia, the main umbrian town.
the death company outfited themselves, though the carrocio was of the city, as was the serpent standard. They were kind of volunteer corps, outfited themselves (though as milan was one of the biggest cities in europe with 100 000 people in it and it was arguably the richest and with the best weapon quality per price for a milanese, they had very high quality armour, and were almost indistinguishable form knihts with spears and regular knights
For the papal states, if you want a battle pope model, don't give the mithra, give em the cap. Also, If you are going to do julius II, make him (please) on foot with a greatsword that he uses to assault cities like Mirandola.
I don't know how to edit the size of images
Historically, the first accounts of the company of death are found in late works (at least XVI century), so many historians think that they were invented by Italian writers of the time in order to give a more "romantic" feeling to the battle: let's remember that in XVI-XVII centuries Italy was ruled for more than half of its territory by foreign powers, and so many episodes of past resistance against enemy invasions were found and "embellished" by nationalistic poets and writers in order to inspire the population to rise against the foreign occupants (the death oath, the golden ring and the black garments are all symbolic references to the theme of sacrifice and duty). Also, the Carroccio did NOT have an altar upon which a priest constanctly prayed to God for victory. It was a simple chariot carrying all the flags of the cities of the League, and for this reason it was the symbol itself of the League: all soldiers looked to it to remember they were fighting for their beloved city, and to lose it to the enemy meant to lose the will to fight.
The most historically accurate reports of the battle of Legnano describe the Guard of the Carroccio as an èlite unit of heavy spearmen: they were higly trained militias (intended as volunteer citizens, much like Greek hoplites: Italian cities usually didn't employ professional armies or levies, since they didn't have a "reserve" of paesantry like much bigger states, so many citizens were encouraged to train themselves to fight for the city, and were usually organized in companies hailing from each city district or city gate) equipped with the best armours and weapons by their cities (Italian cities, being very rich, could afford to equip their militias with high-quality gear as a "reward" for their services to the city), meaning heavy mail, large tower or drop shields (capable of covering almost entirely the soldier from enemy fire) and spears. The Italian militias were very well trained in the use of formations (since they were not professional soldiers, they were taught to help each other and fight in formation, where the strength of the single soldier is enhanced by the strength of all those fighting by his side), and it was thanks to a tight schiltrom that they were able first to resist against the enemy assault long enough to allow reinforcements to arrive, and then to slaughter the Imperial heavy cavalry and injure the Emperor. Believing him dead, the Imperial army routed.
For the concept of communal heavy cavalry, Italian cities usually employed light cavalry (such as the Berrovieri), preferring it to heavy cavalry due to the lack of numbers: while France and the Holy Roman Empire could field large numbers of feudal heavy cavalry, Italian cities had less men to commit to battle, and as such had to rely on cunning and hit-and-run cavalry tactics rather than big charges. The biggest Italian states (such as Venice and Genoa) had some heavy cavalry, but usually preferred the combination of heavy spearmen (easier to train and more versatile), crossbowmen (easier to train and capable of slaughtering enemy heavy armours) and light cavalry (used to harass enemy ranged troops and pursue those who fled).
true, but you also must consider that heavy cavalry depended on how many nobles were present in the city (nobles as ex-lords of the area who were "advised" (read: Forced) to join the city as citicens. Those who joined (read: lived) decided to form the elite of the city and build massive towers in the city as residences to protect themselves, a sort of castles in a city, but only towers instead). Siena and florence fielded a decent ammount of heavy cavalry, for italian standards as they had more of these warrior nobles in their citizenry. Of course this would also create division in city unity with nobles vs nobles and nobles vs common citizen squabbles that tore these cities apart. We did not have skirmish cav, at least not in a way that it would be impactful. We did not have as much cav as france or the hre as they were kingdoms with feudal ties. But we also had our nobility with their castles, so not lacking in cavalry (though not the best). Most citizens would have been militia most of the time in which some of the new nobles that made themselves through wealth afforded better armour.
The most of italian armies at the beggining (before federick ii started the tradition of using mercenaries) had mostly citizen militia.
About the death company: we do have chroniclers stating their existence and historians agree that they did in fact exist in the battle of legnano as light cav and as guard for the carrocio, though not as strong as the legend would have told you (the cav fled almost without a fight and the wagons is generaly regarded as fictitious). Though apologies are in order for not being too specific: It was not an institution, like the knights templar or knightly orders, it was more of a term refered to those who guarded the carrocio (which you definetly were correct as it had a cross and flags at most). So for a long time it was how milanese named those who guarded the carrocio and afterwards, when mercenaries took the fields of italy, an honorific title the upper class received, though not the most valuable as title of nobility. During the XVI-XVII century italy was between the rennaisance (which generally regarded the medieval past as bleak and not worth discussing, and the baroque period in which most of italy was under spanish influence and it would be hard for pattriotic writings to be allowed that time (and considering most italians did not think of themselves as italians at that time). The real idea of italy came from napoleon's conquests and during the unification of italy, were these episodes were exalted, though not as considered as much as the roman period and the rennaisance. In italy we never had (for most italian historians) a love of the medieval period as even my book admits this bias. We for example never had a true romanticism as other nations being tied more to classicist thoughts. We had people only defend some of the middle ages as the period in which dante petrarch and boccacio lived, and even one who dabbled in the period, Manzoni, still defined it a brutish place (and this was at a time where the elite felt pattriotic and patriotism was the main thought). Only with the fascist period came the general re evaluation of the whole history of italy as positive and were the exaggerations were made. Though the book i cited is beyond this period of historical evaluation. Anyway I'm reading these books again to help the mod team and to help correct what i did wrong (for example i overvalued the importance of the company of death to the city as there was no stable unit and was formed only in times of war).
So I would also like to say that for florence, there should be for tier 1 units a division between various blocks of the cities were the citizens would be recruited by blocks by the gonfallioniere. I am also reading the final part of italy that spans from 1300-1500 "l'italia dei secoli d'oro" so that i may continue to help the mod team (altough for florence i don't blame you if you don't add the various subdivision,you work so hard on this and as a map maker i understand how hard modding can be concentration, time and interest wise.) If you need any help for italy or for specific maps, feel free to contact me! Currently working on a map for the hussites.
PS: about the carrocio, it would have a function similar to the great banner of krakow and in real life also served as a way for soldiers to not get lost and recognize their own in a battle, though the morale, as you said, was the primary objective. Can't wait for a faction reveal
also, your absolutely right on legnano, it was the emperors apparent death that sealed the deal. Immagine how everyone felt when at pavia the emperor came back from the "dead" almost ragnar style
Ahahah absolutely! And imagine the surprise for him when he got the news his army had all but vanished and his nobles were going to rebel against him for all the money he forced them to pay for his army XD
Remaining on topic, however, in my opinion this is a historical mod so it shouldn't contain any "invented" or anyway not historically proved units. In my opinion the guard of the carroccio should be a heavy spearmen unit specialized in defence and holding the ground, leaving the role of light cavalry to the better suited berrovieri. For the carroccio you're right, and it should have a powerful "morale boost" aura that makes everyone fight with more determination.
By the way, count of Parma, if you are Italian pm me: in the forum we must speak english for comprehensibility reasons, but if i can speak Italian with some fellow Italian I will be more than happy
whilst i agree with you on some parts, I definetly disagree on the death company and the lack of heavy cav for italian states, I will definetly pm you so that we can come to some sort of conclusion.
In the end he stopped answering so I assume I was right, but just in case: we have multiple chroniclers citing the death company, as originally a regiment of light cav and heavy spear militia that defended the carrocio. Historians like Luigi Gervaso and Montanelli both agree that it served after that as guard to the carrocio until the 1250s when with frederick ii of svevia introduced mercenary armies to the peninsula, italian cities followed him in this aspect and the citicen body would dissapear gradually, with the carroccio dissapearing around the 1350s ca (some states used after some used it before.)
Also, for the papal states, I suggest cardinal Alborroz as a general, he was a badass
One big problem with historical representation in TW is that in most recent games, all regions are fundamentally the same. There is no difference in productivity between the Scottish highlands and Egypt.
The fertility system could be repurposed to represent the realistic carrying capacity of a region. If all non-trade building income is tied to fertility level, then you would be able to properly represent regional differences in wealth. Assuming that wealth is largely a matter of per capita wealth * population, certain building upgrades and regional modifiers can be considered as representing the per capita wealth side of the equation, while unlocked building slots and fertility represent the population side (fertility representing the limits of the province, and # of unlocked slots representing what % of the limit is realized).
I made two mock-ups of what the fertility map might look like in a system like this. I used McEvedy and Jones' Atlas of World Population history - a bit out of date, but comprehensive and easily available on the internet. Each fertility level represents about ~300k people, based on population in 1300. The first tries to strictly map figures from the Atlas onto Attila's map; the latter tries to take into account the fact that urban population was much more productive wealth-wise than rural population, and so it includes buffs for areas that had notable cities. City population is a bit more dynamic than rural population, but the time frame covered by an Attila campaign isn't very long, so I think it's alright to bake the advantage from having a big city into the province fundamentals (sadly, I don't think there's a good way to properly modify urbanization in this game, as there is no distinction between urban and rural population/building slots).
Raw Atlas data:
Adjusted map:
Obviously these aren't perfect, but it should give a basic idea of how the distribution of regions in the vanilla Attila map does not properly reflect the relative wealth or population of different areas.
Last edited by Fraxinicus; January 06, 2018 at 12:46 AM.
Hi Are you planning to revamp the Latin Empire Roster or to keep that roster with only minor changes on the stats.
Thanks for that awesome mod !
Fertility is province-based. And fertility affects certain aspects of food/wealth production and growth. It's not perfect, but it's plenty enough for a game. I've also repurposed growth for settled factions and changed building upgrade costs, which should help make more important settlements in 1212 stand out way more throughout the game.