Civis
what you all think about the battle lenght?
Im ok with longer battles, but my fear is that this mod will become like roma surrectum 2, with loooooooooooong and boring battles.
right now, i cant conquer a walled settlement because the timer runs out while my troops are still fighting on the walls and at the gates.
so, yeah. what is the general opinion for this battles? should they become a little bit shorter?
Vicarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Not boring if you have cav to flank dumb ai and rear charge, almost insta retreat/win. Done.
Vicarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Hard to make a cav charge on city walls thoughOriginally Posted by BunnyPoopCereal
August Strindberg: "There's a view, current at the moment even among quite sensible people, that women, that secondary form of humanity (second to men, the lords and shapers of human civilisation) should in some way become equal with men, or could so be; this is leading to a struggle which is both bizarre and doomed. It's bizarre because a secondary form, by the laws of science, is always going to be a secondary form. Imagine two people, A (a man) and B (a woman). They start to run a race from the same point, C. A (the man) has a speed of, let's say, 100; B (the woman) has a speed of 60. Now, the question is 'Can B ever overtake A?" and the answer is 'Never!'. Whatever training, encouragement or self-denial is applied, the proposition is as impossible as that two parallel lines should ever meet."
Biarchus
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
The walls is the major defence of the city. If you capture the walls quickly you have gained a huge advantage in the battle. Use missile screens such as hoplitai, spear infantry, legions (in testudo formation). Behind these units use massed archers to rain death on those troops on the walls. Normally one to two volleys of eight archers is enough to make one enemy unit yield while there are no longer units on the wall or they are wavering, order your infantry (one of the above three types) to charge the gates and burn it down. Capture the gates. You now control the walls, and can progress towards capture the city centre.
If you have artillery it makes it even easier to destroy gates and towers. I rarely use the ladders to take the fight to the ramparts. Fighting on the ramparts negates your ability to use massive force and this works to the considerable favour of the enemy. Siege towers are better than ladders, but slightly so. If the enemy ramparts is filled with high armour, high defence units you are in for one hell of a slugfest.
Last edited by Summary; August 01, 2014 at 07:59 AM.
Ducenarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Well for me I have increased morale to balance out the small unit size I use. There are two good alternatives, faster battle submod and slower battle submod. Whatever your preference I think DEI has it covered
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Well for me I have increased morale to balance out the small unit size I use. There are two good alternatives, faster battle submod and slower battle submod. Whatever your preference I think DEI has it covered
Is the slower battle submod on Steam??
Ducenarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Possibly, I know it's in the submod section of DEI (at the top of the main page). If it isn't available on the steam workshop you simply have to extract the file into your rome2/data folder and enable it in the mod manager. If you don't like it, just delete the .pack file.
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Thanks, and for OP obviously I think the battles are too fast. I thought that DeI was getting faster from one of the early builds.
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Attacking sieges: battle speed is ok. no need to rush, but no time to relax either. fatique somewhat an issue
Attacking minor settlement sieges: speed somewhat too fast, not enough chokepoints, too easy to route the AI
Attacking open field battles: speed too fast. the battlemaps are too small, no chance of clever maneouvering no proper use of LOS, everything over in 15 mins.
Defending sieges: battle speed is OK, enemy makes enough breaches, sieges usually over in 25-30 mins
Defending minor settlements: battle speed OKis - fast. Enemy attacks from multiple directions, however, sometimes bunches up too much.
Defending open field battles: speed too fast; if they attack, i want them to risk overextending their forces looking for my main force. small battlemaps prevent it.
I would generally claim the greatest problem is the small battlemap in open field battles, where you simply have neither time nor space for battlefield maneuvering if playing large battles. The excellent LOS system is wasted on battlemaps this small.
If DEI team would manage to increase battlemaps (4times at least, i.e. double the square) it would be great.
That would need a method to speed up the game more than currently allowed (3x would still be too much, if you don't run your men), and eliminate 20 min battle timer.
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
the battle speed would be okay if i didn't feel like missile units were so freaking useless. 3 numidian noble cavalry shooting on a lancerari and only 2 or 3 units dies.
Ducenarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Do you use the blood and gore dlc? If you do you'll notice that whilst missile units do not get near as many kills as they do in vanilla, they do 'soften' the enemy up a lot. DEI makes much greater use of hitpoints than vanilla, so often your missile units will actually do a LOT of damage but get few kills. That said, if you fire into the rear of an enemy unit you will still be able to generate a good number of kills.
I like the way missiles work, they are just a cheap softening tool now rather than wiping whole units. Unless of course your using horse archers which just freaking obliterate most things.
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
I find missle cavalry weak as well and battle maps are too small to manouver them, other ranged units are killing machines if you mange to shoot with them from behind
Citizen
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
A lot of it depends on what missile units you are using, against what targets and from where. Low tier slingers are pretty useless, but decent archers and peltasts can have a massive effect on your battles.
I find the AI is more efficient with its missile units above anything else, which makes the North African tribes (Massaesyli and Garamantia) and the steppe factions the most difficult to play against IMO. Ironically the AI always gets more kills with its jav cav (ie Numidian cav) than any other unit from my experience.
I would never field a missile empty army because they are the best counter to other missile units, elephants and medium infantry. If you have hellenic armies in particular, the lack of a missile arm is catastrophic because the AI's archers/slingers/peltasts will wreck hoplites and pikes easily if left unmolested. Since the garrisons have be overhauled to give the AI a decent gathering of garrisoned archers, it has become more crucial to deploy your own missile units in siege and minor settlement battles. Also, because CA recently implemented a new AI behavior which enables them to much more effectively drive away rear cavalry strikes (you'll note that they actually try and turn and face down your cav now instead of letting themselves be hammered in the back) bringing missile units is even more important to engage enemy soldiers towards the back of the enemy line.
In terms of kills per unit I find that I usually get the most with cavalry, then missile units, then infantry - this assuming that all units are of the same quality. In fact, I actually find it near enough impossible to get triple vetted gold infantry, but with cav and especially missile units, you can get up there much faster. This is because unlike infantry they can just get loads of kills without taking any damage.
If anything, I'd actually say that missile units are overpowered as opposed to useless - especially if you include pilla throwing infantry. 225 man Iberian infantry can cause lots of damage to highly vetted Roman Legionnaires with a single volley of pilla.
Praepositus
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
All this about some units being too weak. You must all bear in mind that the mod will get balanced as they get to version 1.0 and I dont believe that the factions using ranged cavalry have been overhauled just yet.
And now back to topic. I agree that the maps are too small for really being able to manouver your troops around. But I dont know if its the new patch, DeI or a combination of the two but battles are a lot more fun now. The AI actually responded to my flanking manouver instead of just waiting to get rammed from behind.
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
I belive that we should wait and see what happens and how the battles progress after the "unit rebalance" that will be perhaps the main part of full 1.0 release.
I think that the battle length is due to the unit balance wereas a legionarii cohort have trouble breaking down a levy spearman unit from say Gaul etc etc.
If we wait and see about this before both praising/talking down on it...
- "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."- Marcus Aurelius Ceasar.
"One should never need to apologise for what was light-hearted banter.."- James Purefoy
Comes Rei Militaris
Vicarius
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
That's a rhyme I can get behind.
August Strindberg: "There's a view, current at the moment even among quite sensible people, that women, that secondary form of humanity (second to men, the lords and shapers of human civilisation) should in some way become equal with men, or could so be; this is leading to a struggle which is both bizarre and doomed. It's bizarre because a secondary form, by the laws of science, is always going to be a secondary form. Imagine two people, A (a man) and B (a woman). They start to run a race from the same point, C. A (the man) has a speed of, let's say, 100; B (the woman) has a speed of 60. Now, the question is 'Can B ever overtake A?" and the answer is 'Never!'. Whatever training, encouragement or self-denial is applied, the proposition is as impossible as that two parallel lines should ever meet."
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
like i said, 3 numidian noble cavalry shooting on a lancerari from all angles. ends up being fruitless because the kill rate is so slow so 1 lancerari is holding up my 3 numidian nobles while the rest of my army gets obliterated. basically im saying there's no point building missile cavalry vs regular cavalry. they can't even kite effectively because they can't kill quick enough before the enemy cavalry corners them somewhere and kills them. i have played europa barbarorum from RTW1 so i kind of know where this sort of combat is going to go, there is no point building skirmishers/missile cavalry in open field battles. sure u can shoot from the back, but with that same unit i could've had a medium infantry or something and charge them in the back so the entire army routs. or a cavalry unit instead to charge at them. vanilla gave me reason to build skirmishers and missile cavalry.
Artifex
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
Useless missile cavalry? Damn, did not know that when I killed entire hellenic armies full of best units with simple horse archers ;P
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Decanus
Re: what you all think about the battle lenght?
I believe phancdp is specifically referring to Numidian cav which in my opinion could use some buffing. They can not fire backwards while riding and are only slight faster than medium-heavy cav. This makes them completely useless as cav units if they enemy has any cav whatsoever. I'm not 100% sure how exactly numidians were used but presumably they were bit more useful than their current state.
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