Disable current Public Order system

[Summary]

The AI is overly aggressive because they get a MASSIVE boost to PO. They never need to garrison recently conquer territories and so they just go about blitzing each other to no end. Egypt for the first time conquered Africa. The Ardiaei usually a very cautious/loyal attitude faction conquered all of Illyria and the Celts and even parts of Macedon. Many other factions are just hopping armies from one settlement to the next with no end. Their behaviour has become very nomadic, never settling to gain public order because they do not need to any more.

In my Spartan campaign I have taken Larissa and then deployed three dignitaries and have a surplus food of 23. Almost 17 turns in and my public order in a 100% Hellenic region is only 44 and there have been no disasters. In the meantime the Ardiaei conquered Apollonia and without a garisson gets +12 public order and in a matter of a few turns managed to get their public order up to 100 and then go about smashing the Dacians and Celts in the North. So, the time it took for me to get to 44 PO, the Ardiaei literally quadrupled their empire size and I am betting have almost 100 PO in all its recent conquests. In the same time Egypt doubled their empire conquering Carthage in Africa entirely again all Punic territories have 100 PO for the Egyptians.

After about an hour of struggling to compete with the AI's HUGE advantage I lost interest when the only way I could expand further was to backstab my friends Athens and to my horror, I not only became untrustworthy (I knew that would result due to the backstabbing), the blitz that I attempted has left me with the province of Macedon and Greece in a downward PO spiral.

My request to the dev is .... and I ask this with the utmost respect for their sincere work in all other aspects of the mod ..... How do I disable the current public order system that was introduced in 0.95 so that I can enjoy the remaining features of 0.95.

THOSE INTERESTED IN THE ANSWER, DRESDEN POSTED A TEMPORARY SUBMOD AS LINKED BELOW:
Edit: Submod for those interested: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...isoning-Troops

[Marcus Marcellus]

Personally i find that Ardai is not pacifist

[Tundra98]

yeah, there are somethings about this new system that just dont seem right, i dont know, but if most of the region's culture is hellenic, they wouldnt say " look at all those brave soldiers that fight for the empire that gave us food and hearth.....those ing bastards", while if most of it was barbaric they SHOULD in fact revolt if there is no garrison in the city, not say "those people killed my brother, praise the gods!"

[Zonac]

Actually it would be nice if the current PO system would only work for rome because only they had something like this in reallity ( and only in the pre-augustus days). but for example "babaric" factions should have the old PO system. therfore rome would have the ability to "blitz" and steamrole the medeteranian like in reallity but would be slowed down if the suggestion of Summary and mine in this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post13992923 could be implemented

[Ygraine]

Also dislike this new public order change - apart from negative public order, you can't level your generals as easy by having them idle in towns any more either. This sucks since there's not always a war going on (especially with 4 tpy or more - you can sit safely for many seasons without having to worry about time running out objective-wise).

I've seen this Aridei (spelling?)-faction expand in previous patches too.

[Summary]

Yes they might expand but not at the rate of quadrupling in less than 10 turns that is insane. Egypt doubling in the same time. Garrisoned armies are no longer required so they are constantly on the offensive.

[Marcus Marcellus]

So far ive seen a couple of wars between varius factions, but nothing extreme..

[Gensako]

The new PO system is revolutianary and much better than the old one cause you must find more than one ways to hold a region also some times rebellions are almost inevitable and that makes expansion much more difficult and fun. Although its true that some tweaking must be done especially for the AI side to use the new system correctly without the need of PO bonuses that makes it go to a blitz. Also i prefer an aggresive A.I that will grow big and strong enough to oppose me than a passive faction waiting to be conquered as i grow.

[Summary]

Can someone actually recommend a way to disable it? lol. I am sure many people like the current state of the PO. But I do not like having my governors cause -12 PO and then a complete army stack cause +5 PO military presence, while each dignitary can only +1 PO. Basically meaning a governor alone in a settlement is bad for the settlement

My thoughts on this system of having an army cause a negative impact on PO is good, just that it hasn't been perfected and therefore, it is (to me at least) undesirable part of the update that I would like to avoid and at the same time get to play the other features of the update such as the new Germanic faction.

[TheOrangeProject]

The AI never had to put a army as garrisson in any version of the game, or any TW at all.

Ever seen a rebellion in an AI controlled settlement? I have never seen one during my whole TW time and around 400hours each in rome2 and shogun2. It is basically wasted money trying to to make a rebellion happen with agents, especially on higher difficulties. Also the AI has almost ever +100 for PO in rome2 and that is not due to the new update of DeI.

[Lord Dakier]

Ever seen a rebellion in an AI controlled settlement?

In every instalment except Rome and Napoleon.

[rem123456]

In every instalment except Rome and Napoleon.

In barbarian invasion they were quite frequent, specially in the western roman empire.

[zombieflanders]

Ever seen a rebellion in an AI controlled settlement? I have never seen one during my whole TW time and around 400hours each in rome2 and shogun2. It is basically wasted money trying to to make a rebellion happen with agents, especially on higher difficulties. Also the AI has almost ever +100 for PO in rome2 and that is not due to the new update of DeI.

FWIW, I took on the Roxolani and the Ptolemai in my recent Baktria game largely by instigating rebellions with agents and then blocking them from being able to put them down. It worked fairly well, too.

[TheOrangeProject]

FWIW, I took on the Roxolani and the Ptolemai in my recent Baktria game largely by instigating rebellions with agents and then blocking them from being able to put them down. It worked fairly well, too.

Maybe i didnt make my point clear enough:

I have never seen, played from normal up to legendary, a rebellion, for the expection caused by agents (talking about AI settlements). Maybe others have different experience, but by checking the PO of AI settlements shows the problem. The issue the OP had, was that the AI bonus for PO is too high - which i agree with -, but this has been a thing during other TW games and nothing DeI introduced to the game, which doenst mean the new system is not affectec by it. The OP is clearly not talking about agents causing that problem, neither do I.

[rjacko10]

Maybe i didnt make my point clear enough:

I have never seen, played from normal up to legendary, a rebellion, for the expection caused by agents (talking about AI settlements).

I haven't even played that much but in 0.9 I saw a rebels owning a territory previously owned by AI. No agents of mine were responsible.

In fact I saw a lot of AI settlements verging near the -100 mark.

But I do agree there is more refining to be done. I just hope CA hand over the tools so it can be done really well.

[GatoVolador]

I agree with you partially. I wrote in another thread something similar, because i was watching my neighbours (Saka Rauka) garrisoning a newly conquered territory with a huge +17 and went all like WTF!! Dresden´s answer was that he gave the AI a huge boost (specially on higher difficulties) because he wasn´t sure how it would react, and that he is planing on reducing that bonus on the next update (although I don´t know if he means 1.0 or 0.95c).
here is his answer:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ebellion/page2

[Ganossa]

I agree with you partially. I wrote in another thread something similar, because i was watching my neighbours (Saka Rauka) garrisoning a newly conquered territory with a huge +17 and went all like WTF!! Dresden´s answer was that he gave the AI a huge boost (specially on higher difficulties) because he wasn´t sure how it would react, and that he is planing on reducing that bonus on the next update (although I don´t know if he means 1.0 or 0.95c).
here is his answer:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ebellion/page2

I thought the AI behaviour to the new PO was tested previous to "release"? However, I also experience that the new PO is not affecting AI (playing on hard) at all. Therefore, I do not think the AI needs to react in any new game breaking way but just spam expansions as OP described (and maybe as in any previous version?). The new PO is basically crippling only the player and cannot be seen as something else than a "simple" player handicap (which I do welcome as just another challenge). Just look at it as a local PO change, nothing global

The AI never had to put a army as garrisson in any version of the game, or any TW at all.

Ever seen a rebellion in an AI controlled settlement? I have never seen one during my whole TW time and around 400hours each in rome2 and shogun2. It is basically wasted money trying to to make a rebellion happen with agents, especially on higher difficulties. Also the AI has almost ever +100 for PO in rome2 and that is not due to the new update of DeI.

Incite rebellions was my main tactic to take over allied cities in shogun 2

[krunsh]

I'll have to agree with OP... I love the idea behind this update, but it simply doen't seem to work right at the moment. AI isn't capable of handling it (Or rather, too capable.), and governors cannot be used anymore making the whole thing very un-intuitive.

I feel like an army should not give more than -1 PO per unit card in it when garrisoned, that way a governor could still work. Like I said, on paper it's all great, and when starting a game, it's very interesting. But it seems there are a lot of issues that were not spotted during testing that would need addressing before this actually works. I think I will have to wait for more updates until I find this playable.

With all due respect for DeI devs, this is still and will always be the only rome 2 mod!

[Roskilde grenadier]

I fully agree with you, Summary. In most other respects, the mod is perfect, I find.. but the PO bonus to the AI is a little extreme, and it seemingly affects some factions more than others (Ptolemaioi as steamrollers vs Carthage as sitting ducks, etc).

Hope this will be revised.

[Dresden]

With addition of dignitaires as governors, they can actually get quite a few public order skills at their higher ranks. I was hoping this would offset the PO issue for the player as the game progressed. Also, generals should be able to offset the negative once they take some of the governing skills a few times. Yes, they can't get easy xp in the early game, but once again I was hoping dignitaries would offset that.

The point of the system was not to handicap the AI or even affect the AI at all. It was to change the way the player had to play the game. It wasn't just a no-brainer attack a city then sit your army in that city mentality. You have to choose between the public order hit and the massive bonuses you get if you do garrison your troops. I may consider lowering the public order penalty, but I feel it adds a dimension to the game that was lacking. Specifically, that the player has to now think about where to place his/her armies. The goal is always to add complexity and difficulty to the player. I never expected the AI to respond to the system because, quite frankly, its almost impossible to mod their behavior other than the personality and task manager settings. Their over-aggression was present in 0.9 without the new PO system. In fact, we toned it down by quite a bit. Declarations of war are the same as vanilla (rather than ramped up) and we lowered multiple tasks that had to do with expansion. The new PO system has nothing to do with AI expansion, that is a separate issue.

As far as the system having its issues, I admit it does. The main one being the background military presence bonus that is variable based on number of regions controlled in a given province. It makes it counterintuitive (especially in those areas, larger armies give better public order). My hope for the system, if we can find those settings, is that the larger armies give more of a negative. If I can get it setup that way, then a single general can be changed to be less of a PO problem.

Either way, when I have played I find it is manageable and adds a layer of complexity that didn't exist before. Yes, it is new and different and has some flaws. But, that doesn't necessarily mean its entirely worthless. However, I will make a submod that disables the changes for those interested.


Edit: Submod for those interested: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...isoning-Troops