Carthage very passive?

[Roskilde grenadier]

So, I'm trying out DEI for the first time (after not having played R2 more or less since release, since.. well, you know why), and I'm loving it - as others have pointed out, this mod comes very close to being the Stainless Steel of R2. I'm still noticing various problems (minor germanic factions becoming powerhouses, creation of 'blocs' etc), but those I can live with, and I believe they'll prolly be sorted out eventually.

However, eventhough Carthage has had a fantastic overhaul in this game, compared to vanilla, I'm still finding them veeery passive, eventhough they aren't being mauled in Iberia anymore. But in every single game I've played since vanilla, they always get attacked by Syracuse in the first turn or so, and they always loose - and not doing anything about it, eventhough they can.

This game I'm seeing them getting eaten by Ptolemaioi from the east (not doing anything about it), and they've even lost Thapsus (and not doing anything about it, although they could easily take it back). I'm seeing a transport with 11 or so units of theirs just sitting off the coast of Sardinia, for several turns not doing anything, and Carthage itself has now come under siege from the Egyptians.

So overall, Carthage has been improved, but they still seem very passive to me (they haven't bothered with bothering me at all, yet - in fact, I've had to team up with them against Syracuse to help them(!)).

What's your experience with them in DEI v0.95?

[BunnyPoopCereal]

Yes Carthage is always very passive in my games. Also, Rome barely moves

Usually Syracuse is the one who expands into Carthage.

Also, Seleucids always get destroyed by Armenia, Egypt, Baktria

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

Yes Carthage is always very passive in my games. Also, Rome barely moves

Usually Syracuse is the one who expands into Carthage.

Also, Seleucids always get destroyed by Armenia, Egypt, Baktria

Yes, Seleucids always get smashed by Egypt and broken clients.

I have never seen Rome grow big as well and advance to later reforms as they get crushed by the Seubi (they seem to take over half of Europe or some other Germanic tribe) or just never expand.

Essentially suebi and Egypt need to be nerfed a bit and rome and Carthage possibly buffed. Carthage start position is rather difficult though, even for a player much less the AI. Half of Iberia dislikes Carthage and other half requires lots of diplomacy to become friendly. African tribes can cause trouble for the AI and player if not played carefully. The reason Syracuse gains an advantage over Carthage is that Carthage has no army in Sicily whatsoever. Meanwhile Syracuse can pump out 2-3 against its sole enemy. Carthage has one in Africa but as Dresden said AI can not use water. My last campaign as Carthage saw 6 allied armies camping around Carthage unable to cross the water to attack war target. Hopefully this issue can be fixed.

[Dangerman]

I have never seen Rome grow big as well and advance to later reforms as they get crushed by the Seubi (they seem to take over half of Europe or some other Germanic tribe) or just never expand.

[Dresden]

It is the water. The AI just doesn't know how to handle water with CA's transports mechanic. They also can't handle multiple fronts.

[Hadro]

Also, I find it very difficult to generalize in this game regarding dominant cultures. I have a game going at the moment (as Iceni) where Carthage have taken all of spain and the greek states (must have confederated) have taken italy and are pushing out the areveni.

There are literally endless possibilities.

When this game is played with DEI, it shines as one of the best TW games for its sheer unpredictability and scale.

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

Also, I find it very difficult to generalize in this game regarding dominant cultures. I have a game going at the moment (as Iceni) where Carthage have taken all of spain and the greek states (must have confederated) have taken italy and are pushing out the areveni.

There are literally endless possibilities.

When this game is played with DEI, it shines as one of the best TW games for its sheer unpredictability and scale.

Occasionally there are variations which is nice but when so many people agree that certain cultures expand rapidly there are clearly some "dominant" cultures. The player can also have some affect on this too depending on the faction they play as. Also, good point with regards to the Greeks. The Spartans or Athenians always wipe out Eprius and Macedon.

If anything conquest needs to slow down a bit especially with 4 tpy. Often expansion takes place at a rate far beyond the capabilities of ancient civilizations. However, the new approach toward garrisons is definitely a great step toward this.

[Cope]

Also, good point with regards to the Greeks. The Spartans or Athenians always wipe out Eprius and Macedon.

Just sayin'.

[vpapako]

It is the water. The AI just doesn't know how to handle water with CA's transports mechanic. They also can't handle multiple fronts.

How about giving CAI Carthage more money from trade so they can afford better armies or change the starting positions to give them more troops in Sicily in the begining? That's where their downfall usually starts. Syracuse expands into Africa fine in pretty much all games I've played so far. you are 100% right about multiple fronts. Carthage begins the game with more than any other Faction.

[Hadro]

Yeah water and multiple fronts seems to bring down even large factions.
Hopefully this great team can continue to tidy up CA's mess.
Great new update btw!

[Summary]

I wish the Germanic, Gallic, Celtic and Pritannoi factions do not form major blocks. They were always warring against each other and never actually formed a nation or confederation except when it came to a joint venture against Roman expansion. Even in this case many of them sided with the Romans. In this game however, not just DeI but r2tw, Seubi, Icenii, Nervii, Averni become the only remaining barbaric entity somewhere around 50-100 turns into the game. It would be nice if DeI would/could implement a negative diplomatic modifier for attacking a particular culture. Say as a Roman I attack a Hellenic culture, Epirus, automatically all other Hellenic states should have a negative view of Romans and more like to declare war, even if they are warring against Epirus. It's kind of like how feuding brothers unite when there is a common enemy. Similarly attacking one of the Gallic factions should unite them in their opinion against Rome, and then the formation of a Confederation is more likely. This prevent of confederations earlier on will help reduce the chance of super barbaric confederations whooping the Roman AI every time.

This would also considerably increase the challenge of the game when trying to wipe out a culture in foreign provinces. For example consider, you are a Roman and you want to conquer a province of four settlements belonging to the Gauls. Currently, chances are they are united under one banner of the Averni. This means that your armies will have to deal with a maximum of four enemy armies. Since the imperium level for four regions is only 2. But consider all four regions were still ruled by four different Gallic entities, then each have an imperium level 1 and therefore, 2 armies each that totals to 8 armies each. Double the strength of a confederation. Since, all four of them will be unfriendly with you due to your foreign policy with the Gallic factions, they will likely DoW on you simultaneously, meaning you will have to combat a much more formidable opponent than you would have to against a confederation.

This is why most of the time when I want to disband a threat that rising from territories I do not want to include in my empire, I usually liberate three of four factions within that threat, and turn them against that threat. Their 8 armies will tear down that confederation pretty quickly and the confederation will have no response to the onslaught, despite being larger in size than all four of them combined.

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

I wish the Germanic, Gallic, Celtic and Pritannoi factions do not form major blocks. They were always warring against each other and never actually formed a nation or confederation except when it came to a joint venture against Roman expansion. Even in this case many of them sided with the Romans. In this game however, not just DeI but r2tw, Seubi, Icenii, Nervii, Averni become the only remaining barbaric entity somewhere around 50-100 turns into the game. It would be nice if DeI would/could implement a negative diplomatic modifier for attacking a particular culture. Say as a Roman I attack a Hellenic culture, Epirus, automatically all other Hellenic states should have a negative view of Romans and more like to declare war, even if they are warring against Epirus. It's kind of like how feuding brothers unite when there is a common enemy. Similarly attacking one of the Gallic factions should unite them in their opinion against Rome, and then the formation of a Confederation is more likely. This prevent of confederations earlier on will help reduce the chance of super barbaric confederations whooping the Roman AI every time.

Wow that is actually a really good idea! But what if lets say Greeks are fighting Greeks or celts fighting celts?

[Summary]

Wow that is actually a really good idea! But what if lets say Greeks are fighting Greeks or celts fighting celts?

In the case of Greeks attacking Greeks or Celts against Celts, the diplomatic modifiers still hold true because you are causing a regional instability. The same reason why historically Epirus has a poor diplomatic standing with the Greeks is because they wanted to with the Greeks. What this also does is if you are threatening to unite all of Greece under one banner, i.e. monopolize the balance of power, the remaining factions will despise you. The same way the Greeks despised the expansionist Macedonians under Phillip II and Alexander. Of course in the case of Greeks attacking Greeks there would still be an overall better rating because you share the same culture is a positive modifier. Whereas, in the case of a Roman attacking Greeks, they will be quickly hated because they lack that extra bit of bonus.

The diplomacy rating could also compute where the military action was taken, it would be nice. For example, if I am Sparta and Epirus invade Sparta and I am defending my settlement, I should really not suffer a negative diplomatic modifier for military action against Epirus, after all I was only protecting myself not attacking them, self defense. If I go on the offensive, I should be gaining negative rating pretty quickly because the expansionist mentality should quickly rack up military actions debuffs. For example, if I am at war with Epirus that has a good standing with Macedon, I should not decrease my image in front of Macedon, if Pyrrhus invades Sparta and I defend it (hence, military action taken against an army of Epirus in Sparta). It should be neutral, granted Epirus should get a negative modifier from all Hellenic factions for not respecting national boundaries. However, if I take the offensive and take over Larissa or conduct a raid or a blockade of Larissa, Epirus's rating should not suffer by instead my rating will suffer. This will prevent me from blitzing out factions for fear of other culturally associated cultures declaring war on me simultaneously.

Also the negative modifier for attacking a culture should vary depending on the difference between the culture. Sparta would be less opposed to Epirus occupation than to Roman occupation than to barbaric occupation. This makes sure that if your culture is entirely different the resistance you meet from the culture you are at war with will be higher and the chances of coalitions against you is also higher. Wow, I should have started off with that, sorry for making you read this wall of text.

Again this is only an idea. My ideas are usually never regarded probably because they are so far fetched, and unattainable.

[FlashHeart07]

In the case of Greeks attacking Greeks or Celts against Celts, the diplomatic modifiers still hold true because you are causing a regional instability. The same reason why historically Epirus has a poor diplomatic standing with the Greeks is because they wanted to with the Greeks. What this also does is if you are threatening to unite all of Greece under one banner, i.e. monopolize the balance of power, the remaining factions will despise you. The same way the Greeks despised the expansionist Macedonians under Phillip II and Alexander. Of course in the case of Greeks attacking Greeks there would still be an overall better rating because you share the same culture is a positive modifier. Whereas, in the case of a Roman attacking Greeks, they will be quickly hated because they lack that extra bit of bonus.

The diplomacy rating could also compute where the military action was taken, it would be nice. For example, if I am Sparta and Epirus invade Sparta and I am defending my settlement, I should really not suffer a negative diplomatic modifier for military action against Epirus, after all I was only protecting myself not attacking them, self defense. If I go on the offensive, I should be gaining negative rating pretty quickly because the expansionist mentality should quickly rack up military actions debuffs. For example, if I am at war with Epirus that has a good standing with Macedon, I should not decrease my image in front of Macedon, if Pyrrhus invades Sparta and I defend it (hence, military action taken against an army of Epirus in Sparta). It should be neutral, granted Epirus should get a negative modifier from all Hellenic factions for not respecting national boundaries. However, if I take the offensive and take over Larissa or conduct a raid or a blockade of Larissa, Epirus's rating should not suffer by instead my rating will suffer. This will prevent me from blitzing out factions for fear of other culturally associated cultures declaring war on me simultaneously.

Also the negative modifier for attacking a culture should vary depending on the difference between the culture. Sparta would be less opposed to Epirus occupation than to Roman occupation than to barbaric occupation. This makes sure that if your culture is entirely different the resistance you meet from the culture you are at war with will be higher and the chances of coalitions against you is also higher. Wow, I should have started off with that, sorry for making you read this wall of text.

Again this is only an idea. My ideas are usually never regarded probably because they are so far fetched, and unattainable.

But if at least some of it could be converted into something doable in the mod that would still be imho an improvement to the diplomatic side of DeI. Some of the actions as you describe dont really make any sense when as the game is now when looking at how your rating drops and rises with your actions.
Nice idea Summary. Also it depicts the human nature a bit more realistic I would say. Especially with the ganging up on the romans if they attack greeks.

[Alu10]

This is why most of the time when I want to disband a threat that rising from territories I do not want to include in my empire, I usually liberate three of four factions within that threat, and turn them against that threat. Their 8 armies will tear down that confederation pretty quickly and the confederation will have no response to the onslaught, despite being larger in size than all four of them combined.

talking about liberating / making client state / satrapy: the army they get when they get liberated etc should be smaller. they instantly have a strong defensing force which is not logical and too powerful. When making a satrapy or client state you would need to protect it for several rounds until you may leave without fearing destruction of that satrapy.

[FlashHeart07]

What about the submod that helps some of the major factions? Is that not able to help keep them alive and kicking for just a bit longer?
Regarding the question if Carthage is too passive. Usually they are but the rest of the world changes from campaign to campaign. Even seen Epirus beating the other greek states.

[Roskilde grenadier]

Concerning Carthage, would it be possible to spawn an army for them in Sicily as part of their starting position? Just as a defense measure against Syracuse. Or is that untenable?

[Zonac]

I totally agree with Summary! However even if it is possible to modify... the balancing of the negativ impact is crucial. And as an addition: in your example epirus attacks you as sparta, you defend : no negative impact... wouldn't it even nicer if the diplomacy impact would be given stronger by the decision of what you do with the defeted army? maybe you should get + impact if you release the captives ( cos you give mercy to follow brothers..) but you could also get neg. impact by killing those ( and for macedon even a stronger - impact!^^) only the slav option will be truely neutral. therfore if you show mercy and the other greek stats like you for it , epirus will not so likly attack you again because all the other greek nations stay more positiv to you than to him and will more likly wage war an him. but if you kill the captives both of you show negativ impact in greece because of this senseless murder of greek brothers and therfore the rest of greece will either stay out of your fights or even will join forces on you ;D
just an idea

[Summary]

I totally agree with Summary! However even if it is possible to modify... the balancing of the negativ impact is crucial. And as an addition: in your example epirus attacks you as sparta, you defend : no negative impact... wouldn't it even nicer if the diplomacy impact would be given stronger by the decision of what you do with the defeted army? maybe you should get + impact if you release the captives ( cos you give mercy to follow brothers..) but you could also get neg. impact by killing those ( and for macedon even a stronger - impact!^^) only the slav option will be truely neutral. therfore if you show mercy and the other greek stats like you for it , epirus will not so likly attack you again because all the other greek nations stay more positiv to you than to him and will more likly wage war an him. but if you kill the captives both of you show negativ impact in greece because of this senseless murder of greek brothers and therfore the rest of greece will either stay out of your fights or even will join forces on you ;D
just an idea

Nice addition
I am glad people are liking this direction and contributing.

[Ano2]

As Dresden as said the sea is often the biggest problem for the AI, notably carthage. I have wondered whether making most of the sea inaccessible would help at all (basically only allowing sea 'lanes' between common routes such as carthage to syracuse).