Zweihanders and Forlorn Hope

[crazyj]

Well, we all know there are two two-handed sword units for the HRE, the Zweihanders which are in the demo and a unit called the "forlorn hope" which has similar characteristics. Til now, I found nothing to differentiate the two...until this screenie...so now my theory is that the Zweihanders stop becoming available for recruitment and the Forlorn Hope appear at a certain date, just like any other "reform" unit. Maybe the Germans carried on their tradition but this time it was a more motley collection of scum than the previous freeman warrior. Either way they match the style of the other late units very well.

So after having lots of fun with these guys,




I refine my murderous tendencies and add puffy slashes.



Sweet....I can hardly wait to slash some Italians with my late HRE Forlorn Hope, Pikemen, Handgunners *and Arquebusiers if they get em, can't remember* and Gothic cavalry......tasty perfection.

[Ahiga]

My expectation might be that Forlorn hope are very cheap to buy, but have very high upkeep (To simulate having to handle prisoners and make sure they dont escape), whereas Zweih will be more expensive but a cheaper upkeep.

One unit you buy when the battle will happen soon and you need someone to banzai, the other will be more strategical.

Also the Zweih will likely be disciplined and high moral, the Forlorn hope more like berserkers.

[crazyj]

Yea, I love the idea of late era suicide squads charging guns and pikes to disorganize while the main formations move in slowly behind, under a continuous cannon cover, their puffy tunics all covered in blood killing musketeers and handgunners....

[the_mango55]

No I don't think your idea is correct. Sorry

Zweihanders didn't come along as a mainstay in the army until later eras anyway, so making them unable to be used during the peak of their power would be a shame.

[Tercio Pikemen]

Zweihanders: real slashes of 1,8 m. Of length. the zweihanders were not welded but swords
Forlon hope = doppelsoldner: persons who were receiving(charging) 2 you pay in exchange for a suicidal assault in the first line to mess up the enemy linas while there was coming the thickness of the army (the lansquenetes)

The German lansquenetes were the predecessors of the picture of infantry, adopting in numerous occasions an essentially defensive unfolding, in which the pikes were forming an impassable wall supported by the fire of the arcabuces. The combination of both weapon was turning out to be difficult to offset. As it was advancing the XVIth century the number was increased of arcabuceros. The Swisses, on the contrary, were basing his power on the field of battle on the use of the pike, seeking with a massive load of his formations to shorten to the maximum the duration of the combat. But the limited utilization of weapon of fire in his model did that prompt they were meeting overcome by the tactics of the lansquenetes.

One of the most famous strategies that the lansquenetes were using to attack the enemy formations was her of advancing a men's line, known like " verlorene haufe " (hope desperate), that armed with slashes and halberds were trying to open a gap that later could be exploited by the forefront that they was continuing. This maneuver, still being effective, he supposed a high cost in lives, for what the chosen ones to realize it were condemned that had to recover, unfortunate chosen at random or volunteers. One was distinguishing them for a white pen in the beret and for a red flag.

Excuse but I have a very limited Englishman

[Darkragnar]

eh wrong,
If Forlong Hope are dopplesoldner's than they arnt a suicide squad , they are suppose to get in and make headway for the rest of the lansknechts not charge in and die.
And yes they were paid twice the amount that an ensign got.


Wasnt Folong Hope a tactic used by Gun armed troops to delay an advanceing army with small ambushes and retrating one at a time, much like the bound watch except done with units in ambush instead of single men.

[Spong]

The English armies during the Napoleonic wars used a 'Forlorn Hope' of redcoats for leading the charge when storming a breach in fortress walls.
I think the HRE Forlorn Hope is genuinely intended to be criminals and are for assaulting pike formations and probably similarly leading siege assaults - anything dangerous really.
Doppelsoldners are quite seperate, you don't give criminals double pay, you don't give them any pay, they're supposed to die.
If you look carefully at the second screenie showing the Forlorn Hope you can see in the unit cards panel further along on the right is a unit that looks rather alot like zweihanders, holding the sword in the same position as the Forlorn Hope but fully armoured.

[awisler]

yea they are two different units im pretty sure, or ign screwed up

(100 posts!)

[Furious Mental]

Those are probably dismounted Gothic Knights

[Gunfreak]

that hole Forlorn hope thing is confusing, this is what i think of when i read Forlorn hope

Forlorn hope is a military term that comes from the Dutch verloren hoop, which should be translated as "lost troop" although in Dutch it can also mean "lost hope". In the days of muzzle-loading muskets it was most frequently used to refer to the first wave of soldiers attacking a breach in defences during a siege. It was likely that most members of the forlorn hope would be killed or injured. The intention was that some would survive long enough to seize a foothold that could be reinforced, or at least that a second wave with better prospects could be sent in while the defenders were reloading or engaged in mopping up the remnants of the first wave.

[Tovi]

They are named "les enfants perdus" in french. It means "lost kids".