Why do Europeans have such disdain for immigrants in general?

[Caelius]

I'm not asserting that Great Britain and France represent Europe as a whole, I just thought it'd be good to bring up a parody of the American thread

Link

French police face 'permanent intifada'

By JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press Writer Sun Oct 22, 6:15 PM ET

EPINAY-SUR-SEINE, France - On a routine call, three unwitting police officers fell into a trap. A car darted out to block their path, and dozens of hooded youths surged out of the darkness to attack them with stones, bats and tear gas before fleeing. One officer was hospitalized, and no arrests made.

The recent ambush was emblematic of what some officers say has become a near-perpetual and increasingly violent conflict between police and gangs in tough, largely immigrant French neighborhoods that were the scene of a three-week paroxysm of rioting last year.

One small police union claims officers are facing a "permanent intifada." Police injuries have risen in the year since the wave of violence.

National police reported 2,458 cases of violence against officers in the first six months of the year, on pace to top the 4,246 cases recorded for all of 2005 and the 3,842 in 2004. Firefighters and rescue workers have also been targeted — and some now receive police escorts in such areas.

On Sunday, a band of about 30 youths, some wearing masks, forced passengers out of a bus in a southern Paris suburb in broad daylight Sunday, set it on fire, then stoned firefighters who came to the rescue, police said. No one was injured. Two people were arrested, one of them a 13-year-old, according to LCI television.

More broadly, worsening violence in France testifies to Europe's growing struggle to integrate its ethnic minorities. Some mainstream European politicians — adopting positions previously confined largely to far-right fringes — are suggesting that the minorities themselves are not doing enough to adapt to European mores.

In Britain, former Foreign Minister Jack Straw, now leader of the House of Commons, this month touched off a wide debate about the rights and obligations of Muslims by saying that he asks devout Muslim women to remove their veils when visiting his office. Prime Minister
Tony Blair said Islam needs to modernize.

In France, a high school teacher received death threats, forcing him into hiding, after he wrote a newspaper editorial in September saying Muslim fundamentalists are trying to muzzle Europe's democratic liberties.

Ethnic integration and violence against police are both becoming issues in the campaign for the French presidency. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the leading contender on the right, said this month that those who do not love France do not have to stay, echoing a longtime slogan of the extreme-right National Front: "France, love it or leave it."

Michel Thooris, head of the small Action Police union, claims that the new violence is taking on an Islamic fundamentalist tinge.

"Many youths, many arsonists, many vandals behind the violence do it to cries of 'Allah Akbar' (God is Great) when our police cars are stoned," he said in an interview.

Larger, more mainstream police unions sharply disagree that the suburban unrest has any religious basis. However, they do say that some youth gangs no longer seem content to throw stones or torch cars and instead appear determined to hurt police officers — or worse.

"First, it was a rock here or there. Then it was rocks by the dozen. Now, they're leading operations of an almost military sort to trap us," said Loic Lecouplier, a police union official in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris. "These are acts of war."

Sadio Sylla, an unemployed mother of three, watched the Oct. 13 ambush of the police patrol in Epinay-sur-Seine from her second-floor window. She, other witnesses and police union officials said up to 50 masked youths surged out from behind trees.

One of the three officers needed 30 stitches to his face after being struck by a rock.

The attack was one of at least four gang beatings of police in Parisian suburbs since Sept. 19. Early Friday, a dozen hooded people hurled stones, iron bars and bottles filled with gasoline at two police vehicles in Aulnay-sous-Bois, a flashpoint of last year's riots, said Guillaume Godet, a city hall spokesman. One officer required three stitches to his head.

Minority youths have long complained that police are more heavy-handed in their dealings with them than with whites, demanding their papers and frisking them for no apparent reason.

Such perceived ill-treatment fuels feelings of injustice, as do the difficulties that many youths from immigrant families have finding work.

Distrust and tension thrive. Rumors have flown around some housing projects that police are hoping to use the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which ends this week, to round up known troublemakers, on the basis that fasting all day will have made the youths weaker and easier to catch.

Police say that suggestion is ludicrous. However, they are on guard ahead of the first anniversary this week of last year's riots. That violence began after two youths who thought police were chasing them hid in a power substation and were electrocuted to death.

Police unions suspect that the recent attacks may be an attempt to spark new riots.

"We are getting the impression these youths want a 'remake' of what happened last year," said Fred Lagache, national secretary of the Alliance police union. "The youths are trying to cause a police error to justify chaos."

Associated Press Writer Elaine Ganley contributed to this report from Paris.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

Many these muslims really starting to make me upset. They come to a country that takes them and later hate that country. This is the same in all western countries including Canada where I live. These muslims are not happy with the way our society works, and hate our way of life, than they should go back! GOD!. Im not trying to generalize, since I know many muslims are incorporated very well into societ, but still. I believe that every nation have its own ethnicities, except let say some cultural exchages with other nations who share similair beliefs and societies. (except North America since everyone from everywhere comes there and it was built by immigrants)

(I am not racist, I am Armenian and mostly only preferr Japanese girls)

Think about it, one day there will not be any French ethnicity (I know french are already Germanic, Italian,etc..,etc,) nor will there be a English, or German, or Irish, or Greek they will all be the same. i believe immigration to Europe should be stoped, period!, they just cause to many problems and create crime and and minorities that do not want to be part of the societ or accept the norms of the host society. Look what is happening in France, kick those bastards out.

[k995]

Many these muslims really starting to make me upset. They come to a country that takes them and later hate that country. This is the same in all western countries including Canada where I live. These muslims are not happy with the way our society works, and hate our way of life, than they should go back! GOD!.

Problem with this, most of these youths are french from birth and have been born in france en lived there whole life in france.

Where are you going to send them back too?

Think about it, one day there will not be any French ethnicity (I know french are already Germanic, Italian,etc..,etc,) nor will there be a English, or German, or Irish, or Greek they will all be the same.

I doubt that will happen soon, and no sooner then americans and canadians and mexicans melt together.

i believe immigration to Europe should be stoped, period!, they just cause to many problems and create crime and and minorities that do not want to be part of the societ or accept the norms of the host society. Look what is happening in France, kick those bastards out.

Wel migration has been stopped for decades, most immigrants now are refugees.

[Tabell]

Problem with this, most of these youths are french from birth and have been born in france en lived there whole life in france.

Where are you going to send them back too?

Wherever their parents came from.

[k995]

Wherever their parents came from.

are you for real? You would send back people to a country some have never been just because there ancestor came from there?

Because alot of these immigrants (let's face it, muslims) are in some ways a threat to the nationalities in Europe, just look at how the Muhammed Cartoons went. And the fact that nearly 70% of ALL crimes committed in my country is done my a rather small muslim minority.

And what country is that? I never heard of statstics that high.

If people can accept and adapt to European culture and standards then they are more than welcome to settle, if not, then they aren't... Very simple...

Most muslims do.

[Sidus Preclarum]

Think about it, one day there will not be any French ethnicity

Being French is a political concept, not an ethnical one.

[wilpuri]

Being French is a political concept, not an ethnical one.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a French ethnos?

[Sidus Preclarum]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a French ethnos?

more or less...
more accurately, I say that the French Ethnos is a cultural concept, not a natural one.
the wiki has an interesting article on the difficulty of defining (and, in a way, being ) "French" ...

[wilpuri]

more or less...
more accurately, I say that the French Ethnos is a cultural concept, not a natural one.
the wiki has an interesting article on the difficulty of defining (and, in a way, being ) "French" ...

Well I would say that any ethnicity is a combination of cultural and 'genetic' (in lack of a better word) heritage. While 'American' is a purely cultural concept, I wouldn't say the same apply to the French, who are a European people. The fact that there are millions of non-Europeans with French passports doesn't change that fact.

[mongoose]

Many these muslims really starting to make me upset. They come to a country that takes them and later hate that country.

The problem is that they are "taken in" as permanent 2nd class citizens. I'm not saying that violence is good idea, but don't act as if there isn't a reason for most of these people to be angry.

Think about it, one day there will not be any French ethnicity (I know french are already Germanic, Italian,etc..,etc,) nor will there be a English, or German, or Irish, or Greek they will all be the same

Why is that, in and of itself, a bad thing?

[Carach]

The problem is that they are "taken in" as permanent 2nd class citizens. I'm not saying that violence is good idea, but don't act as if there isn't a reason for most of these people to be angry.

You are not european and its quite obvious you have little idea about european policy towards immigrants, if you did have any such knowledge you would not make such false accusations.

Do not lecture us on the subject of illegal immigrants when your own country are considering building a giant wall across Mexico and defending it with National guard forces, when you have americans already camping out on the border at night shooting mexicans crossing, and when the majority of 'natives' in the south of america hate mexicans more than Hitler hated the jews - this from a country that was built on immigration, and actively encouraged it for centuries.

The French have a very special history.
Remember the French revolution?
They had a very strict definition of separation of church and state from the start.

You know that was almost completely reversed by the time Napoleon came to power? He basically controlled the Pope when he took much of Italy (he actually put him in prison), before forcing agreements upon him and then in return agreed Catholism to be the French State religion again - however with modifications.

It was nothing like an athiest dictatorship (although there was a stage when they "worshiped reason" - cutting off lots of heads indeed... Atheism is just as violent as religion.

But anyway, thats far off the track here, Your not well versed in the history of the French Revolution and its immediate aftermath, that much is clear, i hope i have educated you a bit on the subject.

[Yosemite]

Many these muslims really starting to make me upset.

How dare you call them muslims, true muslims don't **** over the place, they don't burn car nor do any of those kind of "sins", at least the ones i know, that pray 5 times a day, the ones who are really serious about their beliefs, are FAR from being rioters.

I don't know what is up in the head of those people screaming god is great while doing sins.

[bdh]

Think about it, one day there will not be any French ethnicity (I know french are already Germanic, Italian,etc..,etc,) nor will there be a English, or German, or Irish, or Greek they will all be the same. i believe immigration to Europe should be stoped, period!, they just cause to many problems and create crime and and minorities that do not want to be part of the societ or accept the norms of the host society. Look what is happening in France, kick those bastards out.

Well, you could just slow down the pace of immigration rather than remove everybody by force.

And, of course, there is the pesky problem of the host country not fully accepting the immigrants to begin with, which causes them to not adopt cultural norms, which, in turn, causes the host country to accept the immigrants even less, which, in turn, causes.....

[Last Roman]

Problem is, like Hispanic immigrants in the US, Europe receives the poor and uneducated of the Middle East, while the US and Canada generally get wealthy and educated Muslims (who are more likely to assimilate because they choose to be there out of something more than trying to make a simple living). Both are to blame in this case (or in the case of the US also, but that's off topic). Europeans aren't willing to accept the Muslims because of their sterotype and Muslims aren't willing to intergrate into whatever European country because of aforementioned problems.

[Hansa]

Problem is, like Hispanic immigrants in the US, Europe receives the poor and uneducated of the Middle East, while the US and Canada generally get wealthy and educated Muslims (who are more likely to assimilate because they choose to be there out of something more than trying to make a simple living). Both are to blame in this case (or in the case of the US also, but that's off topic). Europeans aren't willing to accept the Muslims because of their sterotype and Muslims aren't willing to intergrate into whatever European country because of aforementioned problems.

Good point, haven't really thought of that before. Though this might be partly right, I do have one or two points to argue against a comparison between the Hispanic population and a minority of Europes moslem population that causes most of the problems Europeans have with immigrants. Europe has quite large amounts of Hispanic immigrants (not to the same extent as the US, but still), in my country there are a lot of Chileans for instance. They all assimilate, integrate, and bring a bit of spice to our culture, they also seem (guessing here) to come from all segments of society, not upper class people. Fact is, hispanic and European culture isn't that different, Hispanics can move to western countries and keep their culture and adapt just fine, so the do vast majority of east-Asians. For Africans, the change is a bigger one than for Hispanics or east Asians, but they to adapt after a while.

So can most moslems, for reasons I do not know the ability to integrate seem to vary according to country. Turks, Bosnians, Palestinians and Iranians seem to integrate better than Pakistanis, Somalians and Iraqis (?). Among a minority mostly of the latter states, comes the majority of problems people have with moslems in my part of Europe. Take Denmark for istance. Just now they have a case where a Pakistani guy is in a lawsuit against his father and brothers who beat him up with sticks. The reason, he refused to kill his little sister, even though she was going to get divorced. In my country (a country wich had a total of about 30 murders last year), a Pakistani recently shot and killed his three sisters, for dishonouring his family (adapting to western society). The last time three people or more was murdered in my country has to be atleast 15 years ago (cause I cant remember). At the same time we have the most outspoken member of the Moslem community, Mullah Krekar, who praises his friend Osama Bin Ladin, openly states that he hates the west, and sais that Moslems will take over the world.

These people are a minority of the moslems, most integrate well (in fact the murder of the 3 Pakistanis caused a demonstration where Pakistanis demonstrated against....Pakistanis). But even tough they are a minority, they scare Europeans who get the notion that moslems cannot integrate, and are out to replace European civilisation with Sharia states, most moslems aren't, but I cant blame people who think so.

[Last Roman]

Good point, haven't really thought of that before. Though this might be partly right, I do have one or two points to argue against a comparison between the Hispanic population and a minority of Europes moslem population that causes most of the problems Europeans have with immigrants. Europe has quite large amounts of Hispanic immigrants (not to the same extent as the US, but still), in my country there are a lot of Chileans for instance. They all assimilate, integrate, and bring a bit of spice to our culture, they also seem (guessing here) to come from all segments of society, not upper class people. Fact is, hispanic and European culture isn't that different, Hispanics can move to western countries and keep their culture and adapt just fine, so the do vast majority of east-Asians. For Africans, the change is a bigger one than for Hispanics or east Asians, but they to adapt after a while.

It is very true that culture, along with economics, does play a part.

[Ummon]

I do consider any immigration, except Islamic immigration, a healthy and promising phenomenon. Thus do I fall or not in the set of intolerant people?

[imb39]

If you think th French have problems, what of the English? We're built upon immigration. I find the thread bizarre as, if you check our history, we have accepted quite a few immigrants. The same is also true of America (more so than probably any other country in the world). The problem does not lie in immigration per se but the rate of immigration. I am one of those who do not have a problem with the current levels, though many do, I accept that.

I remember, when the EU opened up its borders to Poland etc there were stories about millions coming and destroying our paradise. I doubt if anyone who considers the issue seriously considers the influx of workes from those countries to have been a very, very good thing. Is that focussed on? Is the positive impact of this examined even remotely carefully by the Sun reading public? I seriously doubt it because we now have the spectre of another influx from Romania and Bulgaria (I believe) and already the end of Civilisation has been predicted...

The short answer is that there is some disquiet and in Britain, in particular, we are also beginning to examine the method of integration between the disparate communities. At the end of the day, something that many forget, is that we are dealing with human beings and they are doing what they can to better their lives - generally legally too.

[Tabell]

But should they be allowed to better their lives at our expense? Several people I know are trying to get apprenticeships for construction, and theyre going to have a hell of a time to get one because of eastern europeans in the main part.

[Erik]

Why do Europeans have such disdain for immigrants in general?

Are you kidding? We INVENTED racism.

But more seriously I think it works like this:
-People don't like criminals.
-Most crime is caused by poor people.
-Most poor people in Europe are immigrants or children from immigrants.
-As a result you get a correlation between crime and immigration.
-Many Europeans mistake correlation for implication, namely: immigration -> crime.
-Many of those Europeans will start to dislike immigrants in general.