Hezbollah

[OriginOfSymmetry]

Such a good conversation to be wasted in a thread of a different name, please carry on - seneca

That's why it makes sense for Hezbollah to use the same tactic to release the remaining prisoners.

thats just proves that israel shouldnt negotiate with hizballah.

look at the list you gave me, they presenting samir kuntar as an innocent civilian, makes me wonder what the rest there did (the ones that ectually existed), remember that there was a lot of drug trafficing on the israel-lebanon border those days.

and where are those children you promised me??? i want the innocent children!!!

[Erik]

thats just proves that israel shouldnt negotiate with hizballah.

I suppose so.
Or at least they should have made it clear that a future kidnapping would be interpreted as an act of war.

look at the list you gave me, they presenting samir kuntar as an innocent civilian, makes me wonder what the rest there did (the ones that ectually existed), remember that there was a lot of drug trafficing on the israel-lebanon border those days.

Where do they present him as an innocent civilian?

- Samir Kontar, detained in Israel since April 22, 1979 and sentenced for 542 years prison term. Israel refused to release him during the last detainees swap which took place on January 29, 2004.

and where are those children you promised me??? i want the innocent children!!!

Like I said I suppose they were released in 2002 or 2004.
So this is probably out of date now, but still:

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...ppeals_isr.htm

Schoolboy ‘Ali Mustafa Tubeh was only 14 years old when he was arrested in October 1997. He was taken to Khiam Detention Centre where he has been detained without charge or trial for over a year. Conditions in Khiam are harsh. Released detainees have frequently described being tortured after arrest and ill-treated.

(...)

The Khiam Detention Centre is located in an area of south Lebanon which is controlled by the Israeli Defence Forces and the South Lebanon Army (SLA), a Lebanese militia armed and supported by Israel. Over 100 Lebanese detainees, including children, are currently held in Khiam without charge or trial. They have no legal status and Amnesty International believes they are being held as hostages in exchange for information about Israeli soldiers missing in action. The SLA runs the prison with the cooperation of Israel.

[Arrington]

Hezbollah across the border lob rockets indiscriminantly into Israel. Every so often some psycho gets on a bus and slaughters everyone inside with a bomb strapped to his chest. How do you defend that? Build a wall? That's what I'd do. Yeah, but that's not cool, it isn't fair to the innocent Palestinians. No it isn't but what about the men, women, and children being slaughtered on buses or at resteraunts. Everyone jumps on Israel for human-rights violations vs. the Palestinians and perhaps they should do much more. But try to put yourself in their shoes. Given what Israel faces I think they show remarkable restraint. If the US had to deal with that we'd have blown up half the world. Granted, my country can be ridiculously excessive in most aspects of life but still.

I like the analogy earlier about a guy shooting rockets from your neighbors yard. If you ask the neighbor to put a stop to it and he doesn't then you have a right to take action. Once that is done you should probably punch your neighbor in his molars. Why would he let that happen? The people in your front yard are murdering us. Well, we can't control them really...plus they rake the leaves sometimes and play with the kids. Oh ok.

Who won? I don't know. What does it matter? Israel could have turned Lebanon into a giant parking lot. But they didn't. They dropped leaflets before they bombed. More than Hezbollah can say as they point a rocket in the general direction of a city. My point is - for those who constantly criticize Israel - think about what they have to deal with. Provide them with some solutions. Something besides - give them land and they'll promise they won't shoot you. Israel is at fault in many cases and deserves punishment for times it has overstepped its bounds. I just don't get why America (and I hope this doesn't change) is the only one in the world to see that Israel is not a terrorist. They're under attack. How they deal with that is sometimes questionable but why are so many people unwilling to help them.

Why are so few Arab nations unwilling to help the Palestinians?

[Erik]

They're under attack. How they deal with that is sometimes questionable but why are so many people unwilling to help them.

Why are so few Arab nations unwilling to help the Palestinians?

Both questions can be awnsered with the phrase "not our problem".
Israel and Palestine are just two out of hundreds of countries in the world.
Many of them have problems.
It's sad they are foghting, but why should we pick sides?

[Arrington]

Both questions can be awnsered with the phrase "not our problem".
Israel and Palestine are just two out of hundreds of countries in the world.
Many of them have problems.
It's sad they are foghting, but why should we pick sides?

Good point. There's plenty of countries in the world that could use some intervention. America can certainly be selective in what we stick our noses into, ignoring places where obvious help is needed (Africa).

I guess I just don't think its fair how people jump on Israel's back. If they try to integrate the Palestinians into the economy they become so much more vulnerable to open slaughter. Like you said, it's sad they're fighting but should we pick sides? I pick Israel over Hezbollah - that's for sure.

[Miraj]

I pick Israel over Hezbollah - that's for sure.

And I'll pick Hezbollah without a second thought.

[Princeps]

Hezbollah across the border lob rockets indiscriminantly into Israel.

In reality, in all realistic sense, it was Israel that provoked such attacks long time ago.

Every so often some psycho gets on a bus and slaughters everyone inside with a bomb strapped to his chest.

The question us why?

They are hardly psychos, but more like the products of Israeli oppression. Frustrated and depressed youth, or people who sought retribution for Israeli actions... which I'll mention below soon...

How do you defend that?

You can prevent that by not participating in terrorism.

Oh, yes, Israel has a long record of terrorism and state-terrorism.

No it isn't but what about the men, women, and children being slaughtered on buses or at resteraunts.

What about those innocent Palestinians who's houses are bulldozed? What about those Palestinians who live in daily oppression under foreign, illegal occupation, who are forced to comply with humiliating rules and restrictions? What about those Palestinians who are forced to rely on aid, who have lost their dignity? What about those Palestinians who are outrightly killed by foreign invading army? What about those Palestinians who have been driven from their homes and displaced by this foreign entity? What about those homeless Palestinians who cannot build houses to their own land without the premission (which is impossible to obtain by Palestinians) of the invading army?

I could go on forever. You wonder why there is terrorism while all this happens with US blessing and full support. It is US arms that are used in genocides and oppression.

Everyone jumps on Israel for human-rights violations vs. the Palestinians and perhaps they should do much more. But try to put yourself in their shoes.

Given what Israel faces I think they show remarkable restraint.

No they don't. There is no compassion. Israel's hesitance isn't caused by remorse or worry for the lives or anything that sort of sentimental crap, it is just that there are certain factors to consider. Israel has worked hard to maintain this image of the "only democracy in the middle east, true defender of human rights... blah blah". Out-right genocide or too reckless actions will ruin that image that is so vehemently defended to the point of moral bankruptcy in the west.

Who won? I don't know. What does it matter? Israel could have turned Lebanon into a giant parking lot. But they didn't.

As I explained already. It isn't as if Israel cares, it only wants to protect its image. Turning Lebanon into a smoldering crater would have ruined that image.

They dropped leaflets before they bombed.

Excuses. Israel cut aid and brought down the bridges, thus leaving people stuck. Then suddenly they dropped some leaflets telling people to leave their own lands, and then they bombed the densly populated areas.

My point is - for those who constantly criticize Israel - think about what they have to deal with.

Indeed. The thing they deal with is obviously a long term problem which requires patience. But Israel, made arrogant by its power, rashly sought a reckless military solution.

I just don't get why America (and I hope this doesn't change) is the only one in the world to see that Israel is not a terrorist.

Israel is a terrorist state. It has commited acts of far greater horror than Iran. It has completely and utter disregard for UN resolutions. It has violated every human right. It has commited a wide range of war crimes. It has partaken in terrorist activities. The only difference is that it is an American ally, and therefore special and can be allowed to commit any such atrocities and never held responsible...

- Princeps

[k995]

In reality, in all realistic sense, it was Israel that provoked such attacks long time ago.

Not quit, it was hezbollah that kept attacking israel even after the peace agreement of 2000.

The question us why?

They are hardly psychos, but more like the products of Israeli oppression. Frustrated and depressed youth, or people who sought retribution for Israeli actions... which I'll mention below soon...

They are more likely the product of the PA brainwashing they recieved there whole lives. If you have someone telling you for 20 years everything bad in your life is the fault of israel , then gives you a bom it hardly matters what israel has done, you have been brainwahed totaly .

You can prevent that by not participating in terrorism.

Oh, yes, Israel has a long record of terrorism and state-terrorism.

Some state terrorism, not a lot most of the time its just in a war.

What about those innocent Palestinians who's houses are bulldozed? What about those Palestinians who live in daily oppression under foreign, illegal occupation, who are forced to comply with humiliating rules and restrictions?

Well that stil doesnt justify strapping on a bomb and blowing up some israei civilians. If yo dont agree with the israeli gouv, attack them , attack the soldiers attack the police, but never civilians, that is terrorism and wrong.
But most terrrorist are cowards, and civilians are easy targets.

What about those Palestinians who are forced to rely on aid, who have lost their dignity?

In WW2 there were over a 100million refugees , this day there are 0. In the middle east you had 500 000 arab refugees and 500 000 jewisch refugees. There are no jewish refugees left but theer are close to 3 million arab refugees.
Its manily the fault of the neighbouring arab nations who refused to take in the refugees and like to use them as 1 big PR stunt. "look at how bad israel is" they say.

What about those Palestinians who are outrightly killed by foreign invading army?

Well actuay it was the arab neighbour that attacked israel, those neighbours lost territory, if they hadnt attacked ...

I could go on forever. You wonder why there is terrorism while all this happens with US blessing and full support. It is US arms that are used in genocides and oppression.

What genocide? palestinians areone of the fastest growing population on earth . And thats thx to israel.
As for oppresion, israel gave the palestinians the iggest economic boom they ever had. If they had kept on growing like that, by now they would have been the richest arab population. But no they had to start an intifada .

Yes israel is alos to blaim but a large part of the reponsability is with the palestinians themselves. No matter what israel does nothing justifys the killing of civilians, nothing justifys taking up a sniper rifle and shooting a 3 month old baby trough the head just because its jewish.

The Hezzies couldn't care less if you thought them less valiant, good sir knight. They couldn't care less if you thought them cowards as well. What they really are are a bunch of red-blooded poor-men with nothing to lose, everything to gain, and learning how to fight against a technologically superior force. They didn't fight bravely or fight heroically. They fought smartly. And as far as they're concerned, they died heroically and courageously. Kind of like a horse archer shot to heavy infantry and cavalry.

Also, they're Shi'ites. Dying in the course of a fight would be just fine for many of the radicals in Hezbollah. The Israelis then get all the blame (thanks to an amazingly effective PR system for the Hezzies) and more Lebanese start hating Israel.

Despite what you think many hezbollah dont like the idea of dying, many of them arent even poor .
As for techologicly poor, if you got missiles who can reach almost 200km far, have modern anti tank weapons, cluster bombs and remote controlled drones you are better equiped then half of the wordl armys.

Hezbollah is a true mass-movement. The Christian Militia are more like a disgruntled part of the Maronite demographic. The Hezzies are the demographic. They are supported and exist simply because the people are fine and happy with them there.

Not quit, they are a minorty, in gouw as wel as in the region they occupy. Because yes hezbollah occupies part of lebanon, and the only reason the lebanese army doesnt interfere is because they dont want another civil war.
The prople dont have a choice .

The Syrians just give them the guns and cash to do stuff with. Disarming Hezbollah isn't a real 'disarming.' They fight with RPGs and a few AKs that can be hidden in a few basements. Taking away their missiles just takes away a random terror weapon, not their real impact or power.

You dont hide a 10m long missiles and its truck in your basement, and hezbollah had 10 000 of those before the war .

Basically, the Hezbollah men are well integrated into the Lebanese society (in the South of course).

Not quit, they are an occupying force, who bribe most of the population with syrian money. In fact thats what they are a syrian proxy designed to attack israel becase syria doesnt dare to attack directly.

[Princeps]

Not quit, it was hezbollah that kept attacking israel even after the peace agreement of 2000.

Israel has commited far worse violations.

EDIT: calling camp david treaty a peace treaty is simply ridicolous. Palestinians had every right to furious for being lead into believing the Israelis actually want peace. Camp david was a complete, disgusting mockery of peace making. It wasn't treaty of peace, it was an attempt to make the Palestinians sign a humiliating submission. The treaty gave simply way too much to the Israelis.

They are more likely the product of the PA brainwashing they recieved there whole lives.

Probably not. You don't need religious fundamentalist preaching or any of this mythical "brainwashing" when your family is either imprisoned or killed by foreign occupiers. These bombers are victims, products of Israeli actions. It is the west that tries to paint them as brainwashed haters... who kill without any reason just because they hate the Israelis so much for nothing. Media mentions the hate, but it does not mention the context; the justified reason why the hate exists. Therefore people are not allowed to form clear opinions of this conflict.

If you have someone telling you for 20 years everything bad in your life is the fault of israel ,

You mean brainwashing them by telling the truth? It is Israels fault.

Some state terrorism,

Wide scale state terrorism. Israel has destroyed, slaughtered entire villages. Bombed civilan targets. Used civilians as human shields. Bulldozed buildings with people still inside. Deliberately prevented aid from reaching the needy. Amnesty international agrees with me.

not a lot most of the time its just in a war.

There is a war going in there all the time. Israel is waging one against the Palestinian people.

Its manily the fault of the neighbouring arab nations who refused to take in the refugees and like to use them as 1 big PR stunt. "look at how bad israel is" they say.

Don't be ridicolous. IT IS ISRAEL'S fault for displacing these people.

What can you expect? That these already economically somewhat fragile countries to suddenly welcome three million entriely alien people inside their borders, to form slums into their cities?

Well actuay it was the arab neighbour that attacked israel, those neighbours lost territory, if they hadnt attacked ...

If Israel hadn't been created by the Imperialist British in the first place... Arab actions were justfied acts of self-defense.

And thats thx to israel.

Yeah right. :tooth:

As for oppresion, israel gave the palestinians the iggest economic boom they ever had.

Israel is gradually crushing Palestinian economy and collective to prevent any hope of it ever forming functioning state, which would be very much against Israeli interests. Israel is holding Palestine in a stranglehold maintained by a matrix of illegal colonies, road blocks and military force. Israel has established colonies all over the Palestinian land, often on hill tops - these aren't just colonies, they are forts - over important natural resources, namely water. Israeli controlled roads then connect these colonies to the Israeli proper. No large scale Palestinian movement is allowed, or is severly restricted. Palestinians are seperated not only from the out-side world (thus preventing almost all economic growth) but form each other (even futher preventing economic growth and forcing them to rely on aid and has spread a desperate culture of hopelessness and dependency).

If they had kept on growing like that, by now they would have been the richest arab population. But no they had to start an intifada .

While this most certainly is not true, you cannot blame humans for resisting downright oppression.

Yes israel is alos to blaim but a large part of the reponsability is with the palestinians themselves.

Rapist talking. blame the victim.

No matter what israel does nothing justifys the killing of civilians, nothing justifys taking up a sniper rifle and shooting a 3 month old baby trough the head just because its jewish.

No. But understand why it happens. When you do, understand how to prevent it.

[Erik]

If Israel hadn't been created by the Imperialist British in the first place... Arab actions were justfied acts of self-defense.

I fully agree.
The Arab-Israeli wars are just a continuation of the British colonial wars.
Israel wasn't attacked by Arabs, it's creation was in itself an attack against the Arabs who merely defended themselves against occupation.

And Hezbollah was only created AFTER Israel tried to expand it's terretory into Lebanon.
Israel tried to wipe Lebanon off the map, like they tried (and largely succeeded) to wipe Palestine off the map.
If it wasn't for Hezbollah then Israel would occupy a lot more than a few farms in Southern Lebanon, there probably wouldn't be a Lebanon except for a few Ghetto's to put the Lebaneese "untermenschen".

[KaerMorhen]

No. But understand why it happens. When you do, understand how to prevent it.

wishfull thinking - there's no "dialogue platform" with paid lunatics!!!

[dr0p]

In reality, in all realistic sense, it was Israel that provoked such attacks long time ago.

Yes, by the fact that Israel exists instead of a extremist Islamic Palestinian nation.

The question us why?

They are hardly psychos, but more like the products of Israeli oppression. Frustrated and depressed youth, or people who sought retribution for Israeli actions... which I'll mention below soon...

Comon, I don't buy that.
My both grandparents are Holocaust survivors, I don't remember any of them blowing themselves up in a middle of a Arab shopping mall(if such thing even exists). Can you honestly point out persons who were more oppressed than European Jews during the 30s and 40s? (Not to mention Jews who were humiliated and murdered by their Arab neighbors in Arab countries before the birth of Israel, just like a childhood friend of my ex-girlfriend's grandfather who lived in Iraq and was stoned to death by Muslims because he touched a green cloth which represents Islam)

You can prevent that by not participating in terrorism.

Oh, yes, Israel has a long record of terrorism and state-terrorism.

Of course you can. Like the Allies has succeed saving Jews from eradication and Slavs from becoming slaves by military conquest, you can also save the world from subduing to Islam.

What about those innocent Palestinians who's houses are bulldozed?

They're paying for what their father/child has done. Israel don't just bulldoze houses for entertainment. It's a punishment for families who encouraged their own to blow up in the name of Allah.
And trust me, they handle just fine after they get rewards from Hamas and former-Saddamic regime, not to talk about national glory.

What about those Palestinians who live in daily oppression under foreign, illegal occupation, who are forced to comply with humiliating rules and restrictions?

You mean Palestinians who aren't getting payed for months because their government is spending all its funds and international aid on guns and weapons?
And what humiliating rules? showing you're ID at checkpoints? Gee, I was travelling 5 times this year and I didn't knew showing my passport to that lady in the airport is humiliating!

What about those Palestinians who are forced to rely on aid, who have lost their dignity?

The result of voting for a government that encourage death and Jihad. That's not Israel's fault.

What about those Palestinians who are outrightly killed by foreign invading army?

What about those Israelis, Americans, English, Spanish, French, Germans, Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrian, Algerian, Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis, Sudanese and many more who are outrightly killed and butchered by Muslim radicals?
They forced Israel to become an invading army. Israel wouldn't have invaded Gaza(AGAIN..........) if those lunatics would've stopped shooting rockets at Israeli cities and kidnapping soldiers "because Allah has ordered so".

What about those Palestinians who have been driven from their homes and displaced by this foreign entity?

DRIVEN? ROFL
THEY FLED!
in 1948 and 67 more than 1.5 million Arab fled Israel because Syria, Jordan and Egypt encouraged them to. They told them to leave so they won't cought in the crossfire and they promised them a safe return "after the Jews will be dealt with"

What about those homeless Palestinians who cannot build houses to their own land without the premission (which is impossible to obtain by Palestinians) of the invading army?

Boollshit. They can build houses whenever and wherever(inside the strip) they want, they have their own internal affairs office and they deal with it on their own.
But hey, you know better...

I could go on forever.

Please do.

You wonder why there is terrorism while all this happens with US blessing and full support.

Because theres finally a sane nation that realizes the threat of radical Islam and welcomes peace and democracy over Jihad and tyranny?

It is US arms that are used in genocides and oppression.

Actaully the US is funding the IWI to build weapons so the US army can use them, but what the heck...
Genocide? weird, Palestinians are growing by the day.

No they don't. There is no compassion.

Comparing to what the Coalition force has done when terrorists blew up two towers?
Its called restraintment.

Israel's hesitance isn't caused by remorse or worry for the lives or anything that sort of sentimental crap, it is just that there are certain factors to consider. Israel has worked hard to maintain this image of the "only democracy in the middle east, true defender of human rights... blah blah".

Then why start a war?
Israel is not maintaining its image as "peace lovers", Israel is doing what is need to be done, otherwise why the hell would they be building roadblocks all over territories that have being marked as Palestinian since 93?

Out-right genocide or too reckless actions will ruin that image that is so vehemently defended to the point of moral bankruptcy in the west.

But you just said Israel IS doing a genocide on Palestinians.
Stop with the double standard. Hypocrite.

As I explained already. It isn't as if Israel cares, it only wants to protect its image. Turning Lebanon into a smoldering crater would have ruined that image.

Watch pictures of Southern Lebanon. HEY! Its a "smoldering crater". Simply amazing.

Excuses. Israel cut aid and brought down the bridges, thus leaving people stuck. Then suddenly they dropped some leaflets telling people to leave their own lands, and then they bombed the densly populated areas.

Israel bombed bridges and roads connecting Syria to Lebanon. Do you honestly believe people were stuck when you saw LIVE reporters move from place to place easily?

Indeed. The thing they deal with is obviously a long term problem which requires patience. But Israel, made arrogant by its power, rashly sought a reckless military solution.

patience means a second Holocaust.

Israel is a terrorist state. It has commited acts of far greater horror than Iran.

Acts of fat greater horror than creating the Basij? far greater horror than using chemical against Iraqis? Please share your wisdom with us.

It has completely and utter disregard for UN resolutions.

LOL
This whole conflict began with Arabs completely disregarding UN resolution which in first begins with the formation of the State of Israel and ends(saddnely it doesn't end there, I just can't predict the future) with disarming Hezbollah and Hamas.

It has violated every human right.

Such as?

It has commited a wide range of war crimes.

Such as?

It has partaken in terrorist activities.

Such as?

The only difference is that it is an American ally, and therefore special and can be allowed to commit any such atrocities and never held responsible...

You're an idiot if you expect America to support Hezbollah when their official motto is Death to America. Americans justifying Hezbollah is like Jews chanting Zeig Hail.


You call these acts terrorism and war crimes while the other side do the same 1000s times worse even before Israel thinks of responding. While you criticize Israel in attacking civilians by mistake theres a Palestinian Jihadian sitting at home thinking of places where he can blow himself up to please Allah.

[k995]

My both grandparents are Holocaust survivors, I don't remember any of them blowing themselves up in a middle of a Arab shopping mall(if such thing even exists). Can you honestly point out persons who were more oppressed than European Jews during the 30s and 40s? (Not to mention Jews who were humiliated and murdered by their Arab neighbors in Arab countries before the birth of Israel, just like a childhood friend of my ex-girlfriend's grandfather who lived in Iraq and was stoned to death by Muslims because he touched a green cloth which represents Islam)

As to was the most persecuted, I wouldnt kow, armenians, gays, handicapts, enemies of the state, Lets just say it wa sa bad period to be a jew under nazi rule.

As for the arab situation: stern and irgun werent sheep, they murdered brittisch and arab civilians just like there arab counterparts.

Of course you can. Like the Allies has succeed saving Jews from eradication and Slavs from becoming slaves by military conquest, you can also save the world from subduing to Islam.

Actually it was the european citizens, without them most jews would have been dead by the time the allies freed europe.

As for the world from subduing to Islam , there is no danger for that.

They're paying for what their father/child has done. Israel don't just bulldoze houses for entertainment. It's a punishment for families who encouraged their own to blow up in the name of Allah.

Wich is illegal en immoral, you cant condem someone for the actions of there father, brother,sister . Its the same logic that suicide bombers use to justify there own actions.

And trust me, they handle just fine after they get rewards from Hamas and former-Saddamic regime, not to talk about national glory.

Some handle fine, others not . Its not the point, israel shouldnt punish people for what there relatives did.

You mean Palestinians who aren't getting payed for months because their government is spending all its funds and international aid on guns and weapons?

Nonsense

And what humiliating rules? showing you're ID at checkpoints? Gee, I was travelling 5 times this year and I didn't knew showing my passport to that lady in the airport is humiliating!

I bet you they didnt look at you as if your the filth of the earth, threatned to shoot you, halted he control for several hours without explenation, closed it without explenation,...
Your comparing oranges and apples.

What about those Israelis, Americans, English, Spanish, French, Germans, Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrian, Algerian, Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis, Sudanese and many more who are outrightly killed and butchered by Muslim radicals?
They forced Israel to become an invading army. Israel wouldn't have invaded Gaza(AGAIN..........) if those lunatics would've stopped shooting rockets at Israeli cities and kidnapping soldiers "because Allah has ordered so".

What about the Israelis, Americans, English, Spanish, French, Germans, Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrian, Algerian, Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis, Sudanese and many more civlians killed by the IDF?

Both sides are wrong.

DRIVEN? ROFL
THEY FLED!
in 1948 and 67 more than 1.5 million Arab fled Israel because Syria, Jordan and Egypt encouraged them to. They told them to leave so they won't cought in the crossfire and they promised them a safe return "after the Jews will be dealt with"

Yes driven, part of them were driven, part of them answered the call to get out of the way and part just fled for war, how much of each group ? unknown .

Boollshit. They can build houses whenever and wherever(inside the strip) they want, they have their own internal affairs office and they deal with it on their own.
But hey, you know better...

They cant, they can only build in the A area's, B and C you need special permits from israel wich are rarely given to palestinians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Planning_and_Building/

Watch pictures of Southern Lebanon. HEY! Its a "smoldering crater". Simply amazing.
Israel bombed bridges and roads connecting Syria to Lebanon. Do you honestly believe people were stuck when you saw LIVE reporters move from place to place easily?

Yes live reporters paid by the media are comparable with whole families moving. Again oranges and apples. Yes people were stuck and yes people were killed because they were stuck.
Nothing justifys attacking civilians and israel has shown to little constraint in this. If there is danger of hurting civilians they shouldnt attack.

This whole conflict began with Arabs completely disregarding UN resolution which in first begins with the formation of the State of Israel and ends(saddnely it doesn't end there, I just can't predict the future) with disarming Hezbollah and Hamas.

Actually neither ignored the first resolution, it was just a proposition , not a resolution.

You call these acts terrorism and war crimes while the other side do the same 1000s times worse even before Israel thinks of responding. While you criticize Israel in attacking civilians by mistake theres a Palestinian Jihadian sitting at home thinking of places where he can blow himself up to please Allah.

So? If you know your attacking civilians by mistake you hae to take action, israel has neglected to do that for years.

[dr0p]

As to was the most persecuted, I wouldnt kow, armenians, gays, handicapts, enemies of the state, Lets just say it wa sa bad period to be a jew under nazi rule.

Sorry for being cold here but what happened to the Armenians is nothing comparing to 6 million murdered(not including the dead of over 2000 years of persecution...)

As for the arab situation: stern and irgun werent sheep, they murdered brittisch and arab civilians just like there arab counterparts.

Can't you read? I said the Etezel killed civilians though I can't remember them killing British civilians, enlighten me please...
Anyhow the Etezel were a bunch of lunatic that are and were condemned by the vast majority of Jews and Israelis(just like today's settlers). They were hunted, persecuted and stopped eventually, unlike their "Arab counterparts" who were welcomed in the population as national heroes, figures worthy of imitation and Shahids. Yechi hahevdel hakatan(long live the small difference), ah?

Actually it was the european citizens, without them most jews would have been dead by the time the allies freed europe.

True but if Hitler wasn't stopped they would've been captured eventually and murdered. It was the Americans who saved the Jews(in practice it were the Russians but the Americans saved their asses aswell :p)

As for the world from subduing to Islam , there is no danger for that.

After living in Israel for 19 years and listening to a twisted version of Islam's ideology, I wish I could be so optimistic as you are...
I'm afraid that when it'll happen I won't be here to tell you "I told you so".

Wich is illegal en immoral, you cant condem someone for the actions of there father, brother,sister . Its the same logic that suicide bombers use to justify there own actions.

There's no other option...
Some kind of "this is what Allah has rewarded your family for your 'heroic' deeds". And what do you know? suicide bombings are a hell lot less than what was going on here in 2001-2002-2003 when we had 2-3 suicide explosions a day...

Some handle fine, others not . Its not the point, israel shouldnt punish people for what there relatives did.

A son of a Shahid will be likely become a Shahid himself.

Nonsense

Oh really? Haven't you wondered where Hamas is getting all their new weapons while most Palestinians can't even afford bread? Or how PA security forces protest for not getting payed for months but carry brand new ak47s and anti-tank missiles from the most advance kind there is?

I bet you they didnt look at you as if your the filth of the earth, threatned to shoot you, halted he control for several hours without explenation, closed it without explenation,...
Your comparing oranges and apples.

LMAO. You have no idea what ******** you were fed with.
Stick with Jews using Christian's blood to make Matzos, its more reliable.

What about the Israelis, Americans, English, Spanish, French, Germans, Iraqis, Lebanese, Syrian, Algerian, Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis, Sudanese and many more civlians killed by the IDF?

When did the IDF killed Americans(OH RIGHT!!! JEWS ARE BEHIND 9/11!!!!!), English, Spanish, French, Germans, Iraqis, Algerian, Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis and Sudanese? A thing that cannot be said on Islam.

Yes driven, part of them were driven, part of them answered the call to get out of the way and part just fled for war, how much of each group ? unknown .

You expect a Jew to just let a guy how left his house so his brother can kill him resettle in now-his homeland?

They cant, they can only build in the A area's, B and C you need special permits from israel wich are rarely given to palestinians.

Well I know little about it but thinking of it, I too have to get premonition inorder to build a house, don't I? Ofcourse it is more difficult to get when you're an enemy of the state.

Yes live reporters paid by the media are comparable with whole families moving. Again oranges and apples. Yes people were stuck and yes people were killed because they were stuck.
Nothing justifys attacking civilians and israel has shown to little constraint in this. If there is danger of hurting civilians they shouldnt attack.

You are also ignoring the fact that some of them were held there forcibly by Hezbollah to act as human shields.

Actually neither ignored the first resolution, it was just a proposition , not a resolution.

The establishment of the State of Israel passed by a majority in the UN.

So? If you know your attacking civilians by mistake you hae to take action, israel has neglected to do that for years.

And do nothing while Israeli cities are being bombed nonstop? unacceptable.

Zionists are, they are the violent ones

Wow mate, you should be a teacher! Your knowledge is being wasted here!
Zionists are mostly atheists while those who reject the state are religious fanatics who deny Israel since the Torah says Israel cannot be till the Messiah comes.

[k995]

Hezbollah across the border lob rockets indiscriminantly into Israel. Every so often some psycho gets on a bus and slaughters everyone inside with a bomb strapped to his chest. How do you defend that? Build a wall? That's what I'd do. Yeah, but that's not cool, it isn't fair to the innocent Palestinians.

Not if you build it on their land . If the wall had been build in israel itself it wouldnt have been a problem (just like there is a fence seperating gaza from israel for many years now)
But NO, israel had to build it in the west bank, seperating hundreds of thousands of palestianians from tere work or land .

No it isn't but what about the men, women, and children being slaughtered on buses or at resteraunts. Everyone jumps on Israel for human-rights violations vs. the Palestinians and perhaps they should do much more. But try to put yourself in their shoes. Given what Israel faces I think they show remarkable restraint. If the US had to deal with that we'd have blown up half the world. Granted, my country can be ridiculously excessive in most aspects of life but still.

The US couldnt do much different then israel has done. It has done the bombing the assasinations, the occupation, the restrictions,... It all failed in the end the only option that brought peace was negotiating.
And that is what they have to do, negotiate a peace with the palestinian, make a workable agreement. It will require that both sides make consesions tough.

I like the analogy earlier about a guy shooting rockets from your neighbors yard. If you ask the neighbor to put a stop to it and he doesn't then you have a right to take action. Once that is done you should probably punch your neighbor in his molars. Why would he let that happen? The people in your front yard are murdering us. Well, we can't control them really...plus they rake the leaves sometimes and play with the kids. Oh ok.

But would you blow up his house including his wife and children to stop the man? Thats wat israel did, as usual they overreacted .

Who won? I don't know. What does it matter?

They both lost .

Israel could have turned Lebanon into a giant parking lot. But they didn't. They dropped leaflets before they bombed. More than Hezbollah can say as they point a rocket in the general direction of a city.

After bombing most of the bridges and roads, warning people to get out is pretty pointless, how will they get anywere without transportation. ANd even then israel bombed refugees they bombed without warning, used cluster bombs in populated area's,...

As I said, as usual they overreacted and as a result lots of libanese civilians who lived under hizobbollah occupation died. No wonder they are going to support hizobbollah now.

Why are so few Arab nations unwilling to help the Palestinians?

Because palestinians are at best considered fourth rate arabs and that they made a lot of bad and unpopular decisions, like supporting saddam when he invaded kuwait.

[Erik]

Ok, I'll choose sides too:

I pick innocent civilians from whatever country over IDF+Hezbollah+Hamaz.

[Princeps]

Ok, I'll choose sides too:

I pick innocent civilians from whatever country over IDF+Hezbollah+Hamaz.

I'd take that too.

[RZZZA]

Ok...uh...,ill back whoever is strongest. That would be israel. I dont back losers, and thats what israels enemies have all been, chronic losers. And most of the time, mutual enemies of my country...even the entire west. Recently theyve even had beef with the Danes.

I think if youre a westerner, and you back hezbollah or any of these jihadist groups...you are pretty close to being a traitor. All it would take is a little bit more support, in something other than rhetoric, to seal the deal and find yourself in guantanamo bay.

[Miraj]

Ok, I'll choose sides too:

I pick innocent civilians from whatever country over IDF+Hezbollah+Hamaz.

The Hezbollah ARE the civilians of southern lebanon. The shiites bore the brunt of the Zionist onslaught in the 80s and were forced into forming this militia both by the IDF and PLO actions. The Hezbollah is a grassroots org that has valiantly defended and pushed the IDF out of their land TWICE. The Hezbollah runs hospitals, schools, reconstruction and many other services. They have no ideological or international aspirations. They are by the shiites lebanese and for the shiite lebanese.

So I too choose the innocent civilians and thus the Hezbollah.

I think if youre a westerner, and you back hezbollah or any of these jihadist groups...you are pretty close to being a traitor. All it would take is a little bit more support, in something other than rhetoric, to seal the deal and find yourself in guantanamo bay.

Not only do I support the Hezbollah, I have actually donated hard cash to them through trusted lebanese & syrian friends. And I plan to continue to. They are not a "jihadist" group, they are a legitimate resistance and should be taken off all terror lists ASAP.

[Erik]

The Hezbollah ARE the civilians of southern lebanon.

Hezbollah might REPRESENT the (vast majority of) people in southern lebanon.
But that doesn't mean they ARE the people.
People are individuals so they can't possibly "be" an organization.