Major bug with hoplites discovered

[Ano2]

So today I decided to fire up a new Spartan campaign and was somewhat shocked to see my elite hoplites losing to greek drafted hoplites every single time in melee, despite the fact that I was using phalanx and they weren't. This prompted some testing and I have discovered the reason for it.

Basically for some reason the AI hoplites get stuck in charge mode. If you mouse over them whilst in combat you will see they are literally always in it. You'll also notice the constant switching between idle animation (spear pointed up) and combat (spear down) - a result of the constant charges. I then booted up vanilla and ran the same test - Here there was no problem as once the AI hoplites charge they can't form a phalanx - Something which was changed in DEI.

I would like some others to test this just to make sure I haven't got a bugged version or something like that - but I'm pretty sure this is a DEI issue related to the phalanx change. For some reason it seems to be messing up the AI.

As a result the AI hoplites are constantly receiving the large charge bonus, where as the human player is not - explaining why hoplites seem op when your fighting them, and only okay when your using them.

This was all tested on normal difficulty.

[zonks40]

I found that my Spartan Hoplites were copping a flogging from Militia Hoplites, turned out to be the melee defense bonus from the militia adopting the phalanx formation, from memory it gave them a 70+ melee defense, are you sure it isn't that?

[Ano2]

I found that my Spartan Hoplites were copping a flogging from Militia Hoplites, turned out to be the melee defense bonus from the militia adopting the phalanx formation, from memory it gave them a 70+ melee defense, are you sure it isn't that?

Yup I kept checking all the stats during the melee. No phalanx, no bonus, just constant charging. Just want to make sure it's not my version thats bugged, so if you wouldn't mind checking it out that would be awesome

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

Yup I kept checking all the stats during the melee. No phalanx, no bonus, just constant charging. Just want to make sure it's not my version thats bugged, so if you wouldn't mind checking it out that would be awesome

Actually I recall seeing units in constant charging. They were Spartan naval units and light spears. They were slowing shredding my professional Carthaginian hoplites. I remember mousing over and seeing the majority of them charging while in melee throughout the whole battle.

[MagicCuboid]

I just tested this in custom battle and found that the Hoplites were indeed constantly charging. From what I noticed, "charging" displays full time on the Hoplite's tooltip if your units merely receive a hoplite charge passively. If you counterattack a Hoplite's flank, the "charging" status goes away. However, the animation and kill-rate still suggests that the Hoplites are in fact charging over and over. You can see them reform their spear points up, then "charge" back into combat.

Those AI units that actually properly enter a Phalanx tend to stay in it without charging, however. I'm not sure what causes the problem, though, as it seems random which units are bugged and which units aren't. Perhaps if the AI "selects" phalanx before going into combat, it works?

It's worth noting that the buggy units never seem to get the Phalanx defense bonus on their tooltip, but do a huge amount of damage.

[Ano2]

I just tested this in custom battle and found that the Hoplites were indeed constantly charging. From what I noticed, "charging" displays full time on the Hoplite's tooltip if your units merely receive a hoplite charge passively. If you counterattack a Hoplite's flank, the "charging" status goes away. However, the animation and kill-rate still suggests that the Hoplites are in fact charging over and over. You can see them reform their spear points up, then "charge" back into combat.

Those AI units that actually properly enter a Phalanx tend to stay in it without charging, however. I'm not sure what causes the problem, though, as it seems random which units are bugged and which units aren't. Perhaps if the AI "selects" phalanx before going into combat, it works?

It's worth noting that the buggy units never seem to get the Phalanx defense bonus on their tooltip, but do a huge amount of damage.

Thank you for testing it out, and indeed I have found the same as you have conducted a flanking test. Very odd but will definitely need to be fixed somehow.

[Slashas]

This must explain it, because I've noticed that they go out and in into phalanx mode all the time! They totally murder my principes :p

[Litharion]

Thanks for bringing this up.

[MagicCuboid]

I've been trying a few ideas in unit_special_abilities to make them stop charging without success. The main problem is I don't know what I'm doing, so please don't laugh .

Here's what hasn't worked so far:

1. Uncheck "can_autotrigger" permission
2. Uncheck "update_targets_every_frame"
3. Uncheck "clear_current"order"

Each time I unchecked a new ability, I re-enabled the previous ability so only one was isolated. All edits have been made to the "killing spree" unit ability, which seems to be the standard DeI Hoplite Phalanx that the Greek units have.

During testing, I've noticed something else. Whenever the Hoplites raise their spears to ready another "charge", the Phalanx ability icon flashes above their heads as if the AI is activating it. So basically what seems to be happening is the AI is trying to activate the Phalanx over and over, but always tells them to charge afterwards, thus deactivating it.

So essentially, activating the ability gets the hoplite out of combat for a split second, and in that split second the AI has the hoplite attack or "charge" back into combat, thus deactivating the Phalanx. Rinse and repeat.

[Ano2]

I've been trying a few ideas in unit_special_abilities to make them stop charging without success. The main problem is I don't know what I'm doing, so please don't laugh .

Here's what hasn't worked so far:

1. Uncheck "can_autotrigger" permission
2. Uncheck "update_targets_every_frame"
3. Uncheck "clear_current"order"

Each time I unchecked a new ability, I re-enabled the previous ability so only one was isolated. All edits have been made to the "killing spree" unit ability, which seems to be the standard DeI Hoplite Phalanx that the Greek units have.

During testing, I've noticed something else. Whenever the Hoplites raise their spears to ready another "charge", the Phalanx ability icon flashes above their heads as if the AI is activating it. So basically what seems to be happening is the AI is trying to activate the Phalanx over and over, but always tells them to charge afterwards, thus deactivating it.

So essentially, activating the ability gets the hoplite out of combat for a split second, and in that split second the AI has the hoplite attack or "charge" back into combat, thus deactivating the Phalanx. Rinse and repeat.

One thing I'd be curious about is whether or not shieldwall could be a potential replacement for the phalanx. It seems to act almost identically. The other alternative is to remove phalanx and just give the hoplites a huge defensive buff, but that's more of a last resort.

[FlashHeart07]

One thing I'd be curious about is whether or not shieldwall could be a potential replacement for the phalanx. It seems to act almost identically. The other alternative is to remove phalanx and just give the hoplites a huge defensive buff, but that's more of a last resort.

Giving the hoplites a huge defensive buff and removing the phalanx ability should not be a last restort, it should not be done at all. Because that would mean you wouldnt be able to catch hoplites when they are weakest (out of phalanx) and they would be way to OP. Hopefully the problem can be solved without doing this.
But like your idea with the shieldwall.

[Ano2]

Giving the hoplites a huge defensive buff and removing the phalanx ability should not be a last restort, it should not be done at all. Because that would mean you wouldnt be able to catch hoplites when they are weakest (out of phalanx) and they would be way to OP. Hopefully the problem can be solved without doing this.
But like your idea with the shieldwall.

Well it would quite simple to balance, give them very high defence with very low attack. It's not like the player ever has them out of phalanx when in combat atm anyway.

[rjacko10]

Well it would quite simple to balance, give them very high defence with very low attack. It's not like the player ever has them out of phalanx when in combat atm anyway.

Exactly, it is just a chore to press the button. There should be severe disadvantages associated with the phalanx if there are huge bonuses. It makes pressing the button a tactical decision.

[MagicCuboid]

At the risk of drifting the topic a bit... Would it be possible to add an entry to the special_ability_phase_stat_effects table to give Hoplites a morale debuff when flanked? The only equivalent entry in that table is stat_morale, which would put a multiplier on the entire morale of the unit.

[Moonflower]

Mod devs, care to chime in? I too have noticed my units getting chopped down quite fast by greek colonial levies (after my Carthage elephant general engaged a group of these levies, 2/8 were down in close to 30sec on normal battle difficulty....) ... but I have tooltips disabled so I can't confirm the charging bug but does sound viable.

[Litharion]

This is a possible solution for the Hoplite phalanx formation with patch 14.

Possibly a fix. Please test this pack (load it before DeI): http://www.mediafire.com/download/1x...anx_fix_1.pack

Let me know if this fixes the problem.

[morganottosson]

Tried Litharions solution. I didn't experience the charge bug but ai didn't use phalanx formations and I was unable to enter phalanx formation while at combat with enemy unit (as i remember it, this was possible before). Tried with 4 different spartan hoplites, and the same resuslt.

'dd say this is a better solution than the current buged one.

[Litharion]

okay thanks, I will work on a better solution

[MagicCuboid]

Morganottosson beat me to it, but yeah. It was a good try and it does resolve the charging bug at the expense of using phalanxes offensively.

I'd like to point out that the AI has the same charging problem with Shield Wall. The Basilikoi Peltastai and Elite Machairophoroi repeatedly toggle between enabling shield wall and "charging". Now I'm wondering now if CA made those formations so rigid because of this AI behavior.

Would it be possible to disable movement with Phalanx active, but still auto-enabled upon charge? I suppose that could be even more problematic for the AI, though, as well as for the players who'd have to manually turn it off.


edit: That was just sad. At first, leaving the Phalanx autotrigger on but disabling movement once in formation worked. The AI charged, formed a Phalanx, and stayed in it.

But... the AI couldn't figure out how to ever turn the Phalanxes off again and got stuck precisely at the first point of contact. I could literally disengage my entire line and stand ten feet away, waving, for the rest of the battle.

[Litharion]

not a surprise that the Shield Wall ability is broken too.