Testing Siege AI in Campaign...

[Symphony]

My only concern through all of this is that the steppe factions don't become completely irrelevant. Doesn't sound like anybody's reporting that to be the case yet, but I can see it easily happening in the quest to reduce/eliminate touch use.

[Humble Warrior]

My only concern through all of this is that the steppe factions don't become completely irrelevant. Doesn't sound like anybody's reporting that to be the case yet, but I can see it easily happening in the quest to reduce/eliminate touch use.

That is a point. I don`t know much about the steppe factions, but don`t they have at least some foot soldiers? Perhaps they will have siege out rather than attack most of the time. I may have to test them... I won`t be able to if they`re a DLC-only faction though. I`m not buying any DLCs until patch 14 is proven.

AI defending in siege.
Talking about proven, I had my first real attack on a barbarian city called Medhlan of the Delmatae. Actually when I started war with the Delmatae I attacked one of their force-moving soldiers that was passing by which resulted in an ambush and a huge defeat for them. Then onto the city...

I had 4 ladders which we get free ( I would prefer if we had to make them but I know it`s to help the AI). I already had one ballistae, just in case.I had 2337 men composing of Velites, Hastati and some goodly Principes plus 2 Cav, including my General.

The Delmatae were not so good. They had lots of men 3648, but mostly comprised of Illyrian spearmen, Levies, slave slingers, but I noticed they had Noble Hoplites, probably the General- and of course the walls.

I split my ladders into pair and attacked at two different points of his front wall. Not to close together, but close enough so they could help each other if need be, pushed by Hastati. At the same time I ordered the ballistas to fire at a corner of the wall.

The defenders started defending the walls where the ladders were aimed. The ballista bought down one section of the wall quickly (I still think they fire too fast), so now I directed it to the enemy on the walls. The AI was quick to get its men off the walls once I started this. To my surprise, one of my Ladders were set ablaze and another was all over the place because, I guess, the men were getting hit by missiles a lot. The 3rd and 4th tower made the walls, with the 3rd smoking, the men clambered up while I directed the main force through the gap in the wall.

The enemy attempted to stop me at every point and it took quite a bit of micromanaging just to gain a foothold in their grounds. One of my ladder soldiers routed (I didn`t notice till too late), but I was able to support the others fighting on the wall.

I moved to attack from two directions up left and right roadways, capturing one gate and one flag on those sides, but again, the AI was opposing all the way. Finally, their spearmen and slingers broke before my principe and I marched the troops up the final hill, General behind. The AI made another hard attack with its reserves sat the plaza and again we pushed hard and finally battle won.

In my opinion, the defending siege AI did an excellent job of opposing me. Now I am a bit rusty from not playing a while, as this should have been an easy win, but the AI kept me busy at every point and I actually felt I could lose it- thankfully, my Principe pushed on. I was actually beginning to get memories of the days when I attacked the Barbs in Rome 1 and that`s saying something.

Still testing... No absolute conclusions yet.

[pyj99]

In my opinion, the defending siege AI did an excellent job of opposing me. Now I am a bit rusty from not playing a while, as this should have been an easy win, but the AI kept me busy at every point and I actually felt I could lose it- thankfully, my Principe pushed on. I was actually beginning to get memories of the days when I attacked the Barbs in Rome 1 and that`s saying something.

Still testing... No absolute conclusions yet.

Thanks for all the analyses and reports

Happy to see that the game is nearing a level where you can enjoy it

best

[Symphony]

That is a point. I don`t know much about the steppe factions, but don`t they have at least some foot soldiers? Perhaps they will have siege out rather than attack most of the time. I may have to test them... I won`t be able to if they`re a DLC-only faction though. I`m not buying any DLCs until patch 14 is proven.

They are indeed DLC, so you won't be able to test them as a player, but the Massagetae start reasonably close to Baktria (a free faction), so you'd be able to test a defense against them.

The steppe factions get a single, early-game axeman unit (Young Axes); all the rest of their infantry is garrison-only. Young Axes are (by design) pushovers, with low attack, damage, and morale; the AI would have to know to bring stacks of nothing but YAs to have even a slight prayer of winning a walled siege. To put it in Rome I terms, think of the AI spamming stacks of nothing but Town Watch. That's not a step forward for factions that are defined by their cav.

Players could work around it by sieging out the walled settlements, sure (not a lot of fun, but it'd work), but I can't see the AI handling the situation well at all; it'd make any AI steppe attack against a walled city an auto-win for the player, and neuter the steppe factions in the hands of the AI.

Whether it's worth it (making 3 factions irrelevant to improve torch behavior everywhere else) depends on how much that person is irritated by torches; I just think it'd be a shame to go that route.

Can you clarify how cavalry is behaving in your testing when artillery successfully punches holes in the wall? The steppe factions DO have access to ballistae, and the AI does build and use them. If the AI will continue to try charging through arty-created holes in the wall, all is well, especially if the AI is using arty more effectively. If the AI auto-loses when it has nothing but cavalry and arty, regardless of the state of the walls, that's bad news.

[Swamidude]

Ok I took a city with walls from Maesilie or something like that, anyway a desert tribe that has wiped Nova Carthago of the map, not that bad, because now cathago is expanding behind them and they get the old regions from Nova Cathago. And I can move into southern Iberia without going to war with Carthago, they even like me a little bit now Anyway I got sieged by a full stack of slaves (didn't know they did that now ) and my garrison was wiped from the map, it wasn't even a battle but a massacre, like it should be, because before this patch I might have been able to win, because it was raining and that would have bought me a lot of time while the enemy was torching a wet iron gate. But now I couldn't even hold back the first wave XD

They only sacked my settlement, so next turn I could move my army into the city. They sieged me again and it was the best siege ever, I was actually holding them back, after a while I saw the walls wheren't going to hold, so with two units on the sides I moved in to hold back the enemy as long as possible so that my slingers and javelinmen could retreat. After that retreating what was left of my army to the center, while down at the walls where the enemy had to come down I had made a new choke point. But the enemy saw that by walking a few blocks further would cause him to have less oposition, so it actually didn't take the shortes route down with all his troops, but moved three units to another staircase to attack me in the back. I wasn't expecting it so they actually broke one flank and I had to pull back the other two units because I couldn't hold it anymore. After that I blockade the street in front of the capture point, my slingers and javelins behind and my cavalry starting to flank. We both had a full stack so even while the AI really did a good job, it was kinda impossible to win for him, I just had more left in the end and he got butchered in the streets. But hell, it's the first time I had to retreat and start thinking about my next move, so it was a lot of fun.

After that another siege from the slaves, but my main building was finished and now it was a barbarian town again. Allthough the AI did a good job it clearly has more pathfinding problems and doesn't handle it as well as stone walls. Well perhaps it is also because in barbarian towns I tend to blob more units at the ladders xD But I also noticed that when taking a city, I also have more problems and losses on a barbaric town then a stone one. Because on stone walls you can overflow the walls and after that create your own choke point at the stairs where the defender has to move more troops up. In barbaric towns you get attacked from every side, as long as the defender has troops to throw at you. So making any progression is a lot harder, but I guess it's just using other tactics there, because in barbaric towns you also don't have much choke points in the streets of the town itself. Again getting the ladders to the walls looks a bit difficult, but somehow it seems to click into place if they are close enough, saw it again here with one ladder turning 90 degrees and it was attached to the wall, still looks stupid, but it's better that it works this way then that they keep turning the damn thing arround. But the second force still has a bit of trouble finding it's way up, at least they come up, but with the stone walls they have less problems finding the way.

For now I like the stone walls best in a siege battle


edit: On the steppe thing. In my campaigns as Pontus I've found out that the steppe factions like artillery a lot (barbarians overall). Before patch 14 they allready besieged longer then other factions, so I guess there allready was a script for that (and then 2 turns before I was going to surrender they attack *facepalm*) Anyway I got sieged with them having siege equipment and that was even before patch 14 a nightmare, so I guess as long as they have their siege equipment they'll be fine. Otherwise perhaps if they have a ram and 2 or 3 units to ram the gates But the only way to win from the steppe factions is by siege actually, there's a reason all those forts where build, because horses can't climb walls and that's the way you take away their advantage. In open field the hit and run tactics of the nomads would just keep coming untill your whole army is dead and there's nothing you can do if they are to fast except for starting to build defences XD

[Humble Warrior]

Had a particularly impressive siege at Mechlan (this place is changing hands a lot).

A barbarian army (Averni?) attacked with 4 extra ballistas as well as the standard 4 ladders. He had a lot more soldiers than me. I was going to autoresolve it as a loss but decided to see how it played out.

On start, he used his baliistas to take down 4 sections of wall (I had already pulled my men back), leaving a huge gap for any army to walk through. All this time he didn`t move his ladders or men. But was he finished? Oh no! He then proceeded fire his ballistas at my men, while his ladders made for other sections of the wall.

At this point I knew there was no way I could hold him off, so went for an all out attack, using the huge hole in the walls and attacking his ladders. I lost.

But this was on a par with MTW2 which used exactly this same procedeure- Arty, ladders or towers, then send troops. It`s the best way to siege a town and losing as few men as possible. A big plus for the siege AI improvement here. And not a torch in sight!

Never thought I`d see the day with this game.

[Slaists]

A good report.

CA has messed up the minor town defending AI though. Now, the garrison leaves the town and bee-lines for the player's army wherever it is. Might as well set up on a hill outside the town and wait. The AI will come...

[Humble Warrior]

A good report.

CA has messed up the minor town defending AI though. Now, the garrison leaves the town and bee-lines for the player's army wherever it is. Might as well set up on a hill outside the town and wait. The AI will come...

Thanks for your report. It`s impossible for me to notice or remember everything (guess I should use a notepad), so I appreciate yours and others reports. Yes, they are certainly more pro-active.

The Readme said that that was fixed, but I guess not. I hope someone registered on the CA forum can let CA know.

[revan.be]

Thanks for your report. It`s impossible for me to notice or remember everything (guess I should use a notepad), so I appreciate yours and others reports. Yes, they are certainly more pro-active.

The Readme said that that was fixed, but I guess not. I hope someone registered on the CA forum can let CA know.

If Slaists himself or you has been banned from the official tw forum,
i might offer to do it for you .
Please provide , in addition to extensive text description (not just a short qoute),
either an upload to a filesharing site i can access of the replay proving the problem,
or make a video and upload to youtube .
Please PM if this is needed.
If you have not been banned , it would be a lot easier to do it yourself though.

[Humble Warrior]

If Slaists himself or you has been banned from the official tw forum,
i might offer to do it for you .
Please provide , in addition to extensive text description (not just a short qoute),
either an upload to a filesharing site i can access of the replay proving the problem,
or make a video and upload to youtube .
Please PM if this is needed.
If you have not been banned , it would be a lot easier to do it yourself though.

Your offer is greatly appreciated. Hmmm. I`ve never really uploaded anything to anywhere before, I know how to send a replay save file, I had to do that once so CA could fix a bug, but never uploaded a replay to anywhere, and as for utube, no never touched that, but I will find out how to do this stuff. Seems these days utube vids are everything.

[Swamidude]

A good report.

CA has messed up the minor town defending AI though. Now, the garrison leaves the town and bee-lines for the player's army wherever it is. Might as well set up on a hill outside the town and wait. The AI will come...

I believe the small towns are only there because they couldn't make sieges to work, the same with torches. The bad thing is that I don't think they are going to change such things, because off course they made a whole BS story about why these features where in the game instead of admitting the reason that it was because they couldn't make sieges work. (and maybe some of those things where a bit true).

What I hope though is that now that sieges work properly they will finally give all towns walled defences, you could still make a difference, like wooden walls or something in smaller towns. I don't think that is going to happen though, because then they will have to admit that something was just in there as a placeholder. The same as that I hope the current politics are just a placeholder, something that is still being worked on or they at least had plans to change it in the future.


Nice to read they now use their siege equipment properly and actually hold back untill there's a decent gap to storm through. Barbarian towns are still a bit difficult for the AI, but the design from those towns makes it harder I think...

[Humble Warrior]

I believe the small towns are only there because they couldn't make sieges to work, the same with torches. The bad thing is that I don't think they are going to change such things, because off course they made a whole BS story about why these features where in the game instead of admitting the reason that it was because they couldn't make sieges work. (and maybe some of those things where a bit true).

What I hope though is that now that sieges work properly they will finally give all towns walled defences, you could still make a difference, like wooden walls or something in smaller towns. I don't think that is going to happen though, because then they will have to admit that something was just in there as a placeholder. The same as that I hope the current politics are just a placeholder, something that is still being worked on or they at least had plans to change it in the future.


Nice to read they now use their siege equipment properly and actually hold back untill there's a decent gap to storm through. Barbarian towns are still a bit difficult for the AI, but the design from those towns makes it harder I think...

You touch it with a needle. This is my sole fear why they may not remove torches completely - So they can keep to their earlier story, even if it makes a mockery of an AI that can siege without their use.

[Causeless]

I believe the small towns are only there because they couldn't make sieges to work, the same with torches. The bad thing is that I don't think they are going to change such things, because off course they made a whole BS story about why these features where in the game instead of admitting the reason that it was because they couldn't make sieges work. (and maybe some of those things where a bit true).

What I hope though is that now that sieges work properly they will finally give all towns walled defences, you could still make a difference, like wooden walls or something in smaller towns. I don't think that is going to happen though, because then they will have to admit that something was just in there as a placeholder. The same as that I hope the current politics are just a placeholder, something that is still being worked on or they at least had plans to change it in the future.


Nice to read they now use their siege equipment properly and actually hold back untill there's a decent gap to storm through. Barbarian towns are still a bit difficult for the AI, but the design from those towns makes it harder I think...

I don't think we should have entirely stone walled small towns. It'd just reduce the game back to the boring status of constant walled sieges.

Here's what I'd suggest: low level towns are like the current towns, while medium level gets a forts wooden palisade, and high level has the palisade + tower defences.

It would stop everything becoming a grind of walled sieges, but instead add more interesting variety and give settlements some actual defences.

[Humble Warrior]

I don't think we should have entirely stone walled small towns. It'd just reduce the game back to the boring status of constant walled sieges.

Here's what I'd suggest: low level towns are like the current towns, while medium level gets a forts wooden palisade, and high level has the palisade + tower defences.

It would stop everything becoming a grind of walled sieges, but instead add more interesting variety and give settlements some actual defences.

That`s reasonable. It`s probably moot now as patch 14 has been released. I`ve run it a little and can`t see any more changes except the number 1.41! I also suspect this is the last patch to really make any real difference, maybe the last patch.

Expect them to announce an expensive DLC now.

[Causeless]

That`s reasonable. It`s probably moot now as patch 14 has been released. I`ve run it a little and can`t see any more changes except the number 1.41! I also suspect this is the last patch to really make any real difference, maybe the last patch.

Expect them to announce an expensive DLC now.

If patch 14 is the last major patch, I would be very sad :/

[Aenima]

I don't think we should have entirely stone walled small towns. It'd just reduce the game back to the boring status of constant walled sieges.

The thing is I don't see how this can be avoided. It's a TW game, there are stationary targets on the map that all factions want to attack, you're going to have constant walled/unwalled sieges just due to the very nature of the game.

I don't find the current low-level settlement maps to be much fun at all and if anything they really feel jarring...you can have a maxed out province with many high level buildings built in all regions but when it comes to fighting in-game even a highly developed military hub with an accompanying temple just looks like a hamlet. I'm well aware that cities have never been even close to scale in TW games but I feel that the low level settlements in this take it to an entirely new level. They're poorly garrisoned (even with a barracks built in them) they're all similar and, in my opinion, the battles with them are even more boring than in walled settlements. On top of that there's then the issue of the scale and sense of size (or lack thereof) that they have, even in late-game, so they're yet another feature that doesn't add to immersion, but rather breaks it.

Like I said, a TW game is going to be a grind of constant siege battles regardless of whether it's walled or not, it's just a matter of trying to stick to the ones that are fun, which in my opinion is by far and away walled sieges (excluding the many AI problems)

[Huberto]

On top of that there's then the issue of the scale and sense of size (or lack thereof) that they have, even in late-game, so they're yet another feature that doesn't add to immersion, but rather breaks it.

Like I said, a TW game is going to be a grind of constant siege battles regardless of whether it's walled or not, it's just a matter of trying to stick to the ones that are fun, which in my opinion is by far and away walled sieges (excluding the many AI problems)

I think if CA had thought it through -- and been willing perhaps to exclude areas and show more detail at the game's heart -- the answer here is more regions and more variation of walled cities. Smaller regional cities could have been open with possibility of upgrading to weak and medium walls, medium regional cities could have been partially or weakly walled with upgrades, and provincial capitals would be completely walled from the get-go with various upgrades along the way as in previous titles.

Yes it would have required more work on CA's part to implement this.

[SirRobin]

The thing is I don't see how this can be avoided. It's a TW game, there are stationary targets on the map that all factions want to attack, you're going to have constant walled/unwalled sieges just due to the very nature of the game.

It's just a question of gameplay design. The old MTW(1) had very few sieges. So few that they always felt exciting to me when they happened.

[Slaists]

The system double posting all the time today...

[Slaists]

And when I wrote "bee-lines" I meant it literally... At times, the AI rushes out of minor towns in a stretched-out line arriving at my position in a piece-meal fashion...