Testing Siege AI in Campaign...

[Humble Warrior]

Another siege...

This time I am attacked by the Veneti Celtics. the city is Rome again. I will try and get to some other walled city, but this is by Campaign so takes time...
The Veneti had a huge force of aound 3000 men with another 1000 reinforcements. I had about 1000 as my main army was further south dealing with a rebellion.

The Veneti had several balistas or catapults as well as their 4 ladders. I noticed my Romans had the ability to use hay fireballs (?) caltrops and a barrier.

I set my velites, skirmishers and some Rorari on the wall and the rest below. And begun...

The Towers moved forward and again I notice they get a bit in eachothers way as they head down the causeway because they want to get to the nearest left to me, wall.

Anyway, during this, the ballistas or catapults open fire and wow they`re vicious. they hit the walls several times, hitting my men. It was hard to tell if they were aiming at my wall or my men, but they were certainly doing the job. In fact, i`d say catapults are way overpowered in that they fire too quickly. In my book their speed of fire should be slowed down by 50% at least and it would still be plenty fast.

Something else I noticed was when the Celtics made it to the walls with their ladders, the catapults stopped firing at that position and changed to hitting my men, but still going for parts of the wall.

The ladders made it to the walls and the barbs piled up it fine again. At the same time the catapults took down the wall and the main force of the enemy went straight for the gap enmasse. The second reinforcement enemy headed their too. They did not torch the Gates elsewhere.

I set off the fire balls, forgetting that they need a slope to do anything- doh!

Anyway much fighting took place. And suddenly battle over! Why? The enemy hadn`t made it to the centre and I still had fighting men left. I checked the Replay and couldn`t at all see why the battle ended.

Strange. A bug?

But as for the catapults they were brutal and combined with a huge army and ladders, were pretty unstoppable all i`d say is reduce the speed of those catapults- they`re way too fast for reality. Pretty good, save for the last bug.

[Humble Warrior]

Ok, I`m beginning to see a pattern here with the torches.

AI is being prevented from getting a win with torches

Had another siege where the AI army had lots of cavalry and less troops. It attacked with its troops using 1 Tower, but I held it off. As it was obvious I was winning the battle against the troops, I noticed the General and his cavalry go to the gates and begin torching it! I was not happy about that.

BUT... when I had killed all the footsoldiers or they were all routing, the battle ended with a win for me!

It seems that while the AI will still use torches, the battle will end anyway, not allowing a victory by torch use. This is a very good sign for the Beta since it indicates that the AI Devs are focusing away from torch use (hopefully completely).

I really hope the AI DEv gets rid of it totally, but seriously the signs, so far are good.

Keep it up AI Dev, whoever you are.

[Slaists]

Ok, I`m beginning to see a pattern here with the torches.

AI is being prevented from getting a win with torches

Had another siege where the AI army had lots of cavalry and less troops. It attacked with its troops using 1 Tower, but I held it off. As it was obvious I was winning the battle against the troops, I noticed the General and his cavalry go to the gates and begin torching it! I was not happy about that.

BUT... when I had killed all the footsoldiers or they were all routing, the battle ended with a win for me!

It seems that while the AI will still use torches, the battle will end anyway, not allowing a victory by torch use. This is a very good sign for the Beta since it indicates that the AI Devs are focusing away from torch use (hopefully completely).

I really hope the AI DEv gets rid of it totally, but seriously the signs, so far are good.

Keep it up AI Dev, whoever you are.

I suppose they have introduced something that they had in Rome 1 already. When the assaulter had only calvary left, the battle resulted in a win for the defender.

In Rome 2 though cavalry can dismount...

Gate torching actually would be a nice tactic for the AI if it used stealth shooters (such as longbow hunters) for it. Gate defenses (if those have no units deployed) do not see the hunters even while they are throwing torches. Unfortunately, I have not seen the AI try this yet.

[InSomNiac]

just one battle in minor settlement, I realy like this new AI in patch 14...

[Swamidude]

But wait, if there's a gap in the wall and there aren't footsoldiers left then the game is automatically lost by the AI? Because I get it if there are only ladders and you don't want cavalry to torch the gate, but if the enemy has succesfully used catapults to bring down the walls and has only cavalry left then they still lose? :O That seems like a huge bug, imagine a steppe faction laying siege to you, then it's almost impossible to lose, just take out their footsoldiers and you win. Even when they have brought down you walls and a horde of elite cavalry is riding for the gap where you only have a noob garrison you'll win then xD

[Humble Warrior]

But wait, if there's a gap in the wall and there aren't footsoldiers left then the game is automatically lost by the AI? Because I get it if there are only ladders and you don't want cavalry to torch the gate, but if the enemy has succesfully used catapults to bring down the walls and has only cavalry left then they still lose? :O That seems like a huge bug, imagine a steppe faction laying siege to you, then it's almost impossible to lose, just take out their footsoldiers and you win. Even when they have brought down you walls and a horde of elite cavalry is riding for the gap where you only have a noob garrison you'll win then xD

No. That hasn`t happen. The cavalry will attempt to torch the gate if all soldiers are dead or routed and there is no wall gap. I`m sure I made that clear. My apologies if i didn`t.

Anyway, the AI in amongst its new found ability to use siege weapons is like a crack-head still trying to wean off its addiction to torches. Several times, it will have a go at the gate...

It`ll have a go at torching the gate if:

1. The other AI takes too long at setting up ladders. But then stop when the ladders reach wall.
2. Have a go with its cavalry at torching the gate if everyone else is dead or very few foot soldiers left- But it never usually finishes because the game will quit once all the footsoldiers have routed.
3. And at odd times it will just `decide` to torch the gate, even when it`s winning. In this case the AI were overwhelming my walls, but there were not that many of him left to my men. this seemed to make the general and Cav decide to start torching the gate, but then the battle ended with a win for it. So far, the AI has never managed to completely torch the gate past 50%. Other people`s experience may vary, it would be good to know if theirs do.

It`s weird.

Another thing, the game seems to end super fast once it`s decided one side or the other has won. At times I`m still fighting hard when `battle over!`

I`d love to have a chat with the AI guy and find out what`s happening.

[Swamidude]

Ah I thought the next post was an explanation of the previous one where you said:

Anyway much fighting took place. And suddenly battle over! Why? The enemy hadn`t made it to the centre and I still had fighting men left. I checked the Replay and couldn`t at all see why the battle ended.

Strange. A bug?

And in that story the walls where destroyed so that was the misunderstanding XD Did you find out what actually happend there?

Anyway I'm still downloading patches now (takes forever reinstalling the whole game and then you can start installing all the patches xD), seems promissing, love the referens to the AI being like a crack-head, lol XD

Anyway think I'll try it tomorrow with these download speeds....

[IlluminatiRex]

I just had a battle taking a port walled city from Baktria.

I noticed something new that the AI is doing. Rather than just landing all their troops at once, they first landed their melee infantry. When those were routed, they landed the slingers, and after they were routed they landed the general for the naval garrison.

In previous patches, I had noticed that the AI was landing its ships not inside the city, but near me so they could engage. That started with either patch 12 or 13, prior to that they just landed in the city and stay there. This is most certainly an even bigger improvement, because the slingers were able to whittle my men down some before actually landing.

[Humble Warrior]

I suppose they have introduced something that they had in Rome 1 already. When the assaulter had only cavalry left, the battle resulted in a win for the defender.

In Rome 2 though cavalry can dismount...

Extremely good point. So, just code the cavalry to jump off and push the ladders or just make them leave if it`s not the done thing. To be honest, there really is no excuse to not get rid of the torches if CA really try. Not now that the siege AI is close to working pretty well.

I just had a battle taking a port walled city from Baktria.

I noticed something new that the AI is doing. Rather than just landing all their troops at once, they first landed their melee infantry. When those were routed, they landed the slingers, and after they were routed they landed the general for the naval garrison.

In previous patches, I had noticed that the AI was landing its ships not inside the city, but near me so they could engage. That started with either patch 12 or 13, prior to that they just landed in the city and stay there. This is most certainly an even bigger improvement, because the slingers were able to whittle my men down some before actually landing.

I will have to watch for that.

Concerning naval invasions; i`ve had the AI do a couple of naval invasions. I already had ships ready to engage. However, he always tends to attack when it is foggy and by the time I figured where he is, he`s landing troops on the beach. He`s done that to me twice now. I don`t have flags or any of that stuff on, but I wonder if the AI is coded to sneak past using the fog?

I`m looking forward to completed patch 14, but if it takes the AI dev another few weeks to perfect this, I won`t mind at all. There are a few bugs and improvements needed and I dearly hope the torches are totally removed.

[IlluminatiRex]

For clarification, they did not land within the city, but outside of it to engage my forces. Not sure if I made that clear enough.

[Humble Warrior]

There are still some schizophrenic issues with the siege AI in a twisted firestarter addiction sense. It sometimes, even in mid battle will start trying to burn the gates while the troops are already on the walls fighting, then quit, especially cavalry units . I just had a battle where it did just that, quit, then stood outside the walls while all the footsoldiers died... then just stood there. Yep, my first do-nothing bug. I had to send out some dog soldiers to get him near the walls then my skirmishers killed his General which ended the battle.

I certainly get the feeling that torches are indeed hard-coded, as it finds it hard to give it up.

However, this is beta, so, hopefully patch 14 will `cure` the AI of its addiction.

I sure hope someone from CA is taking a peak at this as I don`t think many people play with the Timer off.

[Humble Warrior]

Had another walled siege battle, this time it was Brundisium I think it was called. Walls and terrain were different, but the AI took its one ladder and went for the wall.

I sent out a unit to kill the men when they were close. This stopped the ladder and the pushers fled. the enemy sent one group for the ladders and then all its units forwards. I returned my men to the safety of the city walls.

It then mobbed at the ladder and got stuck there in a giant blob, doing nothing. My Tower arrows hit one or two them. For about 5 minutes it stayed like this and then the AI pulled back some of its forces and regained control and moved its ladders to the walls, so it kinda fixed itself. I was also pleased to note it never devolved to torches to get out of it.

I really hope torches are fully removed since I sense this siege AI with a little more work can now handle siege.

As for naval attacks, have ships with ballista aim at the walls or gates, from what I can tell they are always well within range of sea power as long as they come close. Or have a ram or ladders appear when ships beach with men.

If siege weapons destroyed, end battle.

Will CA get rid of the torches? If they do get rid of the torches completely then I`ll go on record to say that sieges are as good as Rome 1`s or MTW2`s- possibly better. I won`t hold my breath, but there is possibly some hope.

[Butan]

What a friend told me that could need more work is :


AI can re-use and even stack units on siege engines (multiple units scaling all at once), but if you have good defensive units, you can easily block them all on the walls and slowly tire/butcher them with a few units.

A bit like gate-camping tactic, but more spread out since its on a minimum of 4 ladders.
A definite improvement but the AI could need some work in managing his reserves and spreading his siege engines.

[Humble Warrior]

What a friend told me that could need more work is :


AI can re-use and even stack units on siege engines (multiple units scaling all at once), but if you have good defensive units, you can easily block them all on the walls and slowly tire/butcher them with a few units.

A bit like gate-camping tactic, but more spread out since its on a minimum of 4 ladders.
A definite improvement but the AI could need some work in managing his reserves and spreading his siege engines.

Ok, hope CA are on that too.

Although it is not ahistorical. Blocking off the attacker is what the defender should do and sometimes the attacker has no choice but to just shovel as much forces in until the bloackage breaks. But thanks for the notes.

[von stoker]

I actually hope that they keep the torches and program any reinforcing armies to torch other gates. I've had quite a few sieges prior to patch 14 where the reinforcing AI torched other gates, forcing me to pull out units to deal with this threat.
The only siege I have played since patch 14 with a reinforcing army went like this. AI attacked the west gate and walls with a full stack. I had a full stack defending. The AI reinforcements (full stack) came on the northern edge of the map and moved to the northern gate. They half-heartedly tried to torch the north gate before moving off to the east gate. They half-heartedly tried to torch the east gate before going all the way around the settlement and re-using the siege ladders. I had beaten off the first AI army by this time and easily beat off the reinforcing army.
If the reinforcements had assaulted the north gate, I would have had to move near half my army to counteract it and it would have been a much harder battle.

[Humble Warrior]

I actually hope that they keep the torches and program any reinforcing armies to torch other gates. I've had quite a few sieges prior to patch 14 where the reinforcing AI torched other gates, forcing me to pull out units to deal with this threat.
The only siege I have played since patch 14 with a reinforcing army went like this. AI attacked the west gate and walls with a full stack. I had a full stack defending. The AI reinforcements (full stack) came on the northern edge of the map and moved to the northern gate. They half-heartedly tried to torch the north gate before moving off to the east gate. They half-heartedly tried to torch the east gate before going all the way around the settlement and re-using the siege ladders. I had beaten off the first AI army by this time and easily beat off the reinforcing army.
If the reinforcements had assaulted the north gate, I would have had to move near half my army to counteract it and it would have been a much harder battle.

I understand that you feel that way, but it is neither realistic, historical or even makes gaming sense any more with the improving siege mechanics. The AI should use proper means to give you some trouble to fight it, not gimmicky gamey means that turn it into a nonsense.

Giving the AI torches means that siege engines are basically worthless.

All that needs be done is to further refine the AI so it immediately reinforces its friends with the siege engines or even brings its own. I sometimes wonder why people play games based on ancient tactical warfare and yet don`t seem to want to see realistic tactical warfare for reasons that show a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.

Rome 1 and MTW2 can do it without needing people torching other gates and still give players a hard time. We don`t need a frankly silly gimmick that makes a mockery of TW games

[Butan]

Double post.

[Butan]

Reinforcing armies have no automatic siege engines, so its very important that they have a better pathfinding.

They will either camp the gates without torching them, or get too close to the walls while going to reinforce: both times they can easily get butchered by ranged and are totally inefficient whenever they come on the battle map far from the main army.



I would also prefer that torching gates never happen again (I though it was hardcoded?... CA...) but in that case its a better solution, until a better one is found.

[Swamidude]

I've started as the Arevaci to have a look at sieges in barbarian towns. While there's a lot of improvement I do have one problem, the AI seems more hardcoded now to not burn the gates and to keep it's general in reserve, so when all troops are dead, I have to go out of my town to find the generals and kill them.. They just don't do anything except from hiding in the woods (normally they would at least stand there in the open, now you have to search them...), just had a siege with one army and two reinforcement armies and managed to survive with almost nothing left and then I had to go out with 10 / 30 max units left in a every unit (halve even routed) to kill of 3 general units which have the strongest units of the whole battle xD At least let them run away, but if they start hiding in the woods it's annoying. I got them, because I found them with cavalry, surrounded them and then attacked from all sides, but every time half my army was wavering and I could have lost it because of that...

The most annoying thing still is that you have to win by 'time-out' I didn't set a battle time limit for this campaign, because I hoped that I wouldn't need one, but if these problems continue I might have to go back to that option.. Perhaps it was just bad luck and maybe next time it will go better.

Except for that annoying thing that I have to go out of the walls because the AI stops taking initiative it's a lot better, only problem is still with barbaric towns that the AI seems to have a harder time getting on the walls. First it was almost impossible to get ladders on the walls, then there was the update that sort of pins them down when they are close, because it seems to be moving strangely sometimes, but that works. Only problem is getting up the ladders especially the second time. They start running in front of the ladders a bit indecisive and then go up. Maybe only for 2 or 3 seconds, but in that time my towers shoot 3 or 4 guys from them and it looks silly. They storm towards your walls and you are getting ready to hold them of and then 1 meter for the ladder they run back and to the left and right and dance a little bit and then 3 seconds later they decide to come up, but still it works, but it doesn't flow naturally and still does look a bit silly.

All with all it looks good, playable, some minor things annoy me personally. Only thing that really needs to be altered is the autoresolve for sieges, the way I see it is that as long as I don't have any artillery it's always better to autoresolve and still, if you are under siege, fighting the battle yourself is always better. Maybe I should take a look in the workshop for a mod, but honestly I don't have the idea that the defender gets enough bonus for having walls and towers (and perhaps boiling oil) in the autoresolve.

[Humble Warrior]

I've started as the Arevaci to have a look at sieges in barbarian towns. While there's a lot of improvement I do have one problem, the AI seems more hardcoded now to not burn the gates and to keep it's general in reserve, so when all troops are dead, I have to go out of my town to find the generals and kill them.. They just don't do anything except from hiding in the woods (normally they would at least stand there in the open, now you have to search them...), just had a siege with one army and two reinforcement armies and managed to survive with almost nothing left and then I had to go out with 10 / 30 max units left in a every unit (halve even routed) to kill of 3 general units which have the strongest units of the whole battle xD At least let them run away, but if they start hiding in the woods it's annoying. I got them, because I found them with cavalry, surrounded them and then attacked from all sides, but every time half my army was wavering and I could have lost it because of that...

The most annoying thing still is that you have to win by 'time-out' I didn't set a battle time limit for this campaign, because I hoped that I wouldn't need one, but if these problems continue I might have to go back to that option.. Perhaps it was just bad luck and maybe next time it will go better.

That`s very interesting. I`ve only once had a situation where the cavalry wouldn`t move, and I kicked them into gear by hitting them with a couple of men. Every other time, the siege-battle has ended as soon as all men are dead and routed, even if lots of cavalry are hanging around, which is actually correct. this is how it worked in RTW and MTW2. I don`t use the Timer either and so far been very pleased with the result.

Except for that annoying thing that I have to go out of the walls because the AI stops taking initiative it's a lot better, only problem is still with barbaric towns that the AI seems to have a harder time getting on the walls. First it was almost impossible to get ladders on the walls, then there was the update that sort of pins them down when they are close, because it seems to be moving strangely sometimes, but that works. Only problem is getting up the ladders especially the second time. They start running in front of the ladders a bit indecisive and then go up. Maybe only for 2 or 3 seconds, but in that time my towers shoot 3 or 4 guys from them and it looks silly. They storm towards your walls and you are getting ready to hold them of and then 1 meter for the ladder they run back and to the left and right and dance a little bit and then 3 seconds later they decide to come up, but still it works, but it doesn't flow naturally and still does look a bit silly.

I`m about to have my first siege attack on a `barabarian` walled city of the Delmatae to see how they deal with a siege attack. Hopefully, i`ll be able to report on one where they attack too.

All with all it looks good, playable, some minor things annoy me personally. Only thing that really needs to be altered is the autoresolve for sieges, the way I see it is that as long as I don't have any artillery it's always better to autoresolve and still, if you are under siege, fighting the battle yourself is always better. Maybe I should take a look in the workshop for a mod, but honestly I don't have the idea that the defender gets enough bonus for having walls and towers (and perhaps boiling oil) in the autoresolve.

Autoresolve is still strange. Not just for cities but for battles. I now know it`s due to terrain, but the modifiers are huge. I have a larger stack of experienced men and attack a smaller stack of similar experience enemy: the autocalc says I`ll win easily. but if those men retreat, and I attack in the new location, they suddenly have a 75% bar in their favour. I know they`re on a hill, but really? A couple of times I`ve said, I`ll win anyway since I know my tactics and somehow the AI whoops me quite easily. I end up thinking, how the heck did that happen? It seems like they get some huge modifier that i`ve never seen before in any TW game. Weird.