Historical Compositions Of Ancient Armies thread

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

This thread is where you can post historical composition of armies and ask for compositions if you need help

This would be correct for the Camillian Romani yes?

3 Hastati + 2 Allied Light Cohort ( Hastati Samniti & Pezoi Brettoi )
3 Principes + 2 Allied Heavy Cohort ( Principes Samniti and Pedites Extrodanarii )
3 Triarii + 2 Rorarii
2 Leves
2 Eqvites
1 Cvstodes Corpeti Legati

in this formation

........A...A........
..H..H..H..AH..AH
..P..P..P..AP..AP
..T..T..T..RO..RO ______E..E
................G......

Edit: What the Hell! Why is this title name like this!?!?!?!
Don't Worry it has been fixed

[Faldor]

Great thread!

The Antigonidai is my most played faction, and since DeI my core (historical) army is composed of 5 full-stack armies with this setup:

From right to left:
3 Hetairoi (right flank) => every army has 3 of those as a cavalry wing and bodyguard, so no limit here
2 Basilikoi Peltastai => an estimated total of 2500 men
2 Pezhetairoi => an estimated total of 2500 men
4 Chalkaspidai => an estimated total of 5000 men
4 Leukaspidai => an estimated total of 5000 men

The remaining 5 slots have been changed quite a lot in my campaigns, sometimes reflecting regional specialties (only I find there's not enough elite AOR units yet worthy to join my royal ranks, which the future mercenaries will perhaps change), or just more melee based infantry to protect my left flank (as far as I know there's no historical left flank unit belonging to the Macedonian core, except for Agranian shock troops which just don't stand up to the task of protecting that flank). Currently my left flank is this:

4 Thorakitai Legionarioi => an estimated total of 5000 men (modern wing)
1 Aspiridaroi Hetairoi => left wing + scouting unit

I tried using missiles as additional units, but I then find my left flank far more vulnerable, and in these melee-focused armies I mostly find them to be far less effective then some additional swordsmen or cavalry. My other armies are mostly garrison armies consisting of pikemen, peltasts and AOR units, and three assault armies capable of besieging walled settlements (mostly Thureos/Thorakitai units), accompanying the royal armies on campaign.

I find my current composition to be very effective. Even though a pain to recruit when starting my campaign (it's a lot of money and military investment), their effectiveness always makes up for their cost. I'm trying to have these core armies as historical as possible, but I'm no history buff so if anyone has got suggestions or comments on my setup please share it

[zombieflanders]

I don't think any Diadochi army would have consisted almost entirely of Hetairoi and assorted pikemen with no skirmishers. An army under Alexander would have consisted of ~50% pikemen, a few units of hoplites to guard their flanks, a unit of elite cav, a unit of other heavy cav, a couple units of light-to-medium infantry (both Macedonian and allied), and varied skirmishers and other light units. I think a basic Antigonidai army (if we're talking a single full stack here) would look something like this:

9x Phalangatai (start)/Leukaspidai or Chalkaspidai (Thureos or mid-game)/Pezhetairoi (Thorax or late-game)
2x Hoplitai/Thureophoroi Hoplitai/Hypaspistai
1x Hippeis/Thessaloi Hippeis/Aspidophoroi Hetairoi
1x Sarissaphoroi/Thessaloi Hippeis/Hetairoi
2x Epistratoi Hoplitai+AOR/Thureophoroi+AOR/Thorakitai Doriphoroi+AOR
2x Psiloi Toxotai+Psiloi Akontistai (or Peltastai)/Euzonoi+Epibatoi Toxotai (or Kretai Toxotai)/Kretai Toxotai+Euzonoi

That leaves three slots for a general (of your choosing) plus melee infantry or whatever else you want to slot in there. Obviously, you could swap in different troops for different roles and/or AORs, but this looks about right for Macedon to me. I'm reviewing the other phalanx/hoplite-based factions for similar historical-ish builds, but I think that the Diadochi factions (including Seleukidai and Ptolematoi) would be quite similar to each other, while the eastern "hybrid" factions (Pontus and Baktria) would be similar to each other but unique in their own ways. Epirus, Athens, and especially Sparta all seem like they're just different enough to have their own compositions.

[Faldor]

I don't think any Diadochi army would have consisted almost entirely of Hetairoi and assorted pikemen with no skirmishers.

I understood the Antigonid phalanx (at a certain point) was divided into 5000 Leukaspidai and 5000 Chalkaspidai (seeing as the unit limit is 5 for both, I chose 4 units in each army, divided over 5 armies). I consider the Pezhairoi and Basilikoi Peltastai to be one corps of 5000 men also, one half being elite pikemen and the other being light (elite) infantry, providing a more mobile link between the phalanx and the shock cavalry.

I know an army would have incorporated skirmishers and such at that time, which I still can by sacrificing those Legionarioi (this is a purely tactical decision, even though not historical enough to my likes), but in those 5 armies (I'm at the maximum imperium level already so I have plenty of other armies left with cheaper troops and skirmishers) I like to have this "historical", even though doubtful, division of the Antigonid phalanx. I like to see my armies as one whole (with the actual numbers if possible) rather than every single army representing a minimized historical composition. I understood this was also the way the Diadochi wars were fought, with armies representing a large proportion of their total military (other than those numerous legions of Rome, who evidently also had to fight battles/wars with multiple legions at once), and phalanx blocks of thousand or more men.

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

9x Phalangatai (start)/Leukaspidai or Chalkaspidai (Thureos or mid-game)/Pezhetairoi (Thorax or late-game)
2x Hoplitai/Thureophoroi Hoplitai/Hypaspistai
1x Hippeis/Thessaloi Hippeis/Aspidophoroi Hetairoi
1x Sarissaphoroi/Thessaloi Hippeis/Hetairoi
2x Epistratoi Hoplitai+AOR/Thureophoroi+AOR/Thorakitai Doriphoroi+AOR
2x Psiloi Toxotai+Psiloi Akontistai (or Peltastai)/Euzonoi+Epibatoi Toxotai (or Kretai Toxotai)/Kretai Toxotai+Euzonoi

By the way, successor armies would have had more cav than that, get one more cav unit like missile cav, especially the Selucids

[m_1512]

Excellent initiative.

[sgsandor]

Camilian (early first 3 or 4 years)
....A...A...
L..L..L..L..
H..H..H..H
..H..H..H..H..G
Mostly because I have not had time to recruit princeps before my first battles, but the second line can be replaced later
Camilian (mature)
...A...A..
L..L..L..
2x Cav H..H..H..H
..P..P..P..P..
T..G..T

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Make sure you label your units next time

By the way Sgsandor

Camilian (early first 3 or 4 years)
....A...A...
L..L..L..L..
H..H..H..H
..H..H..H..H..G
Mostly because I have not had time to recruit princeps before my first battles, but the second line can be replaced later
Camilian (mature)
...A...A..
L..L..L..
2x Cav H..H..H..H
..P..P..P..P..
T..G..T

Halve the number of Hastati, Principes and Triarii and mix them up with some allied cohorts, samnite mercenaries and some units of celtic stock.
in early years I do the same.

Excellent initiative

Thank you very much!
I just hope people with knowledge share what they can!

[sgsandor]

I apologize for my poor posting (it was very late 4am, and I had to dig up my old screen name and pw as I have not been here in a few years). But yes I agree and do mix it up when I have the proper barracks in place. How can I ignore those tasty aux units? Let me try again for the polybian era army

........WD...V...V...V...WD
.............H...H...H...H
...........H...H...H...H...
EQ EQ......T...T...G......EQ...EQ
WD=wardogs, V=velites, H=hastati, EQ= equites, T=triarii, G= general
This is an early army and I role play that the republic is still poor and principes and hastati are pretty much the same in the early years.
For legio I i always use all roman units, legio II is always all allied units, and the two of them combined is/are the consular army and always work in a pair
Legio III is always a mix 50-50 of roman and allied units, but as my republic grows I segregate them in the same style as legio I & II.

[Don_Diego]

My Marian/Imperial Roman Armies are usually like this:

.....S.......S......S.......
A...L...L...L...L...F...A
A...L...L...L...L...L...A
C.............G.............C

Legionary Cohort = L
First Cohort = F
Light Auxiliaries= S (or auxiliary archers)
Spear Auxiliaries = A
Auxiliary Cavalry = C
General = G


However I don't like the limitations of small 20 unit armies as 10 slots have to be legion cohorts to be historical, leaving little room for variety. Much better to edit the army cap to 30. With this I like to have the following units:

9X Legionary Cohorts
1X Eagle Cohort
2x Auxiliary Swords
8X Auxiliary Spears
3X Auxiliary Cavalry
1X Legionary Cavalry
2X Auxiliary Archers
2X Light Auxiliaries (skirmishers)

Leaving 2 slots handy for scorpions/ballistae. Or for local mercs.

Now this feels more like a real legion, dont like using 2 separate stacks to make my legions.

[Zonac]

However I don't like the limitations of small 20 unit armies as 10 slots have to be legion cohorts to be historical, leaving little room for variety. Much better to edit the army cap to 30. With this I like to have the following units:

Now this feels more like a real legion, dont like using 2 separate stacks to make my legions.

Are there any plans that we can simply download a DEI patch with the corresponding unit cap per army so that we dont have to edit it ourerself? Or is there another solution out there? Because I would really appreciate an 30 or even 40 unit cap per army (But with those options also the garrisons should be 1.5x and 2x )
Thanks in advance

[zombieflanders]

Are there any plans that we can simply download a DEI patch with the corresponding unit cap per army so that we dont have to edit it ourerself? Or is there another solution out there? Because I would really appreciate an 30 or even 40 unit cap per army

Unfortunately, the only way to edit army size caps seems to be editing ESF in savegames.

But with those options also the garrisons should be 1.5x and 2x

I'm not sure if you've played with 0.95 yet, but it gives huge boosts to garrisons (~10-12 units just at level 1 towns). Even if it were possible to edit garrisons like we can army size, by mid-game it would be extremely hard to take any town with less than 2 full stacks.

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

Wow this is an interesting thread! Are these armies ones that are used in game but modeled after historic armies? And how realistic should they be. Cool Roman armies but I have an idea for the polybian legions. Make one army the Roman one and the other the ala with Italian troops. This is especially fun with custom battles and double sized armies, creating 80 unit Roman armies to fight against. I haven't tried it quite yet in campaign but in theory it should work. Perhaps in the future DeI can increase income an army cap a bit so Rome can truly have massive manpower. One area the Romans lacked in manpower were the equites, that made up less than a percent of the army, granted the Italians provided more but clearly cav was not numerous. Why? Presumably it is the cost of the horse which could be increased in game to help simulate armies. Any other thoughts?


On to the Carthaginians now, I have been playing a Carthaginians campaign for 80 turns and I still am not sure what a historically accurate Carthaginians army would look like. I know they often used Balearic slingers, and Spanish and Gaulic tribesmen and mercenaries. Also numidians and Spanish for cav. However, they also used contingents of Libyans and possibly a few Carthaginians. When looking at the game Carthage can recruit hoplites, swords, and pikes. Which were used? Or were all used? My usual build goes as follows, 1 general (actually don't know what best option is, I find elephants to be too risky for gen), 2 Libyan swords for flanking, 4 Carthaginian heavy cav, 9 Carthaginian hoplites for the main line, and 4 skirmish units depending on region, balerics, Sardinians archers, or Numidian javelins. The problem I have with Spanish and Gauls are that they far to weak and unreliable for my armies. That leaves me mercenaries but those are very expensive and are not even comparable to the homeland African troops. Regarding numidians I do nt particularly like how they are portrayed as they are hardly faster than equites and can not used Parthian shot ability which I would awesome skilled numidians could do. This makes them next to useless against any enemy with cav. So what does everyone else build? What was a historic Carthaginian army like?

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

On to the Carthaginians now, I have been playing a Carthaginians campaign for 80 turns and I still am not sure what a historically accurate Carthaginians army would look like. I know they often used Balearic slingers, and Spanish and Gaulic tribesmen and mercenaries. Also numidians and Spanish for cav. However, they also used contingents of Libyans and possibly a few Carthaginians. When looking at the game Carthage can recruit hoplites, swords, and pikes. Which were used? Or were all used? My usual build goes as follows, 1 general (actually don't know what best option is, I find elephants to be too risky for gen), 2 Libyan swords for flanking, 4 Carthaginian heavy cav, 9 Carthaginian hoplites for the main line, and 4 skirmish units depending on region, balerics, Sardinians archers, or Numidian javelins. The problem I have with Spanish and Gauls are that they far to weak and unreliable for my armies. That leaves me mercenaries but those are very expensive and are not even comparable to the homeland African troops. Regarding numidians I do nt particularly like how they are portrayed as they are hardly faster than equites and can not used Parthian shot ability which I would awesome skilled numidians could do. This makes them next to useless against any enemy with cav. So what does everyone else build? What was a historic Carthaginian army like?

Thanks, i never knew about the Carthaginians.
You should add some Scutarii and all that based on the region.
however please sort your army composition in an easy to read manner next time. i.e.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My usual build goes as follows

1 General
2 Libyan Swordsmen
4 Carthaginian Heavy Cavalry (Btw you should add some numidian cavalry like 1 or 2, they were key for the karthadastim)
9 Carthaginian Hoplites
4 AOR Skirmisher (Balerics, Sardinians or Numidians)

and then your formation if you want.

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Come on guys! Anything?

[Don_Diego]

A typical barbarian army:

...B........B......G.......B.......B
B..B.................BBB.....B.........B
B........BB.B....B......B........BB.....B
..B....B........B.............B..B....B.....B

G= General, B=Barbarians

Tactics, charge into enemy. Preferably naked...

[Black9]

A typical barbarian army:

...B........B......G.......B.......B
B..B.................BBB.....B.........B
B........BB.B....B......B........BB.....B
..B....B........B.............B..B....B.....B

G= General, B=Barbarians

Tactics, charge into enemy. Preferably naked...

Now this is a plan that I can get behind.

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

A typical barbarian army:

...B........B......G.......B.......B
B..B.................BBB.....B.........B
B........BB.B....B......B........BB.....B
..B....B........B.............B..B....B.....B

G= General, B=Barbarians

Tactics, charge into enemy. Preferably naked...

Discriminative Conquistador!

I'm going to do that with a full geastae army

[Don_Diego]

Yeah I don't think garrisons need a boost really. I already end up bringing two stacks to take a city! For me the advantage is to create full legions rather than one legion followed by an "auxilia legion" which seems less realistic...

[Zonac]

yes that is true, however if we were able to muster lets say 40 units per army than the overall power is increased double in respect to the garrison.
quick question: is there a posibillity to create a pack/movie file which automaticly corrects the esf in each save game file?