Patch 14 Beta Notes

[IlluminatiRex]

Why is RTW and M2TW (on Steam) updating too ?

Merging Kingdoms as a DLC to M2 in Steam. Patching out Gamespy in both of them and putting in Steamworks.

[Ano2]

First impressions: Feels like a different game in sieges. Have only tested one (Me attacking a barbarian walled settlement) so here's my feedback:

Firstly the AI actually deployed about half it's army along the walls I was attacking with my 8 ladders. The force was a good mixture of missile troops and melee troops. So I hit the walls and the AI sent troops to engage each of my units, whilst it's missile troops continued to fire away. After an epic battle that seemed to go on forever, I managed to break their force and started towards the town centre where the other half of the army was, including their cavalry. As I was approaching the AI sent a small force of infantry to pin me and then flanked in with a cavalry unit, that's right a flanking move inside a city. After taking care of that force my army was in a very bad state, and when I hit the square from 2 sides the AI responded by again using infantry to pin me whilst flanking with cavalry.

Despite having more men I lost the battle. Compare this to the last patch where the AI would only send missile troops to the wall, fail to pull them back, and the blob the square with the melee units... it feels world's apart. Haven't tested an attacking AI versus a walled settlement (or unwalled for that matter) but so far I am EXTREMELY impressed.

[Mithridates II the Great]

In shogun 2 the AI divided it's forces and attacked from 2 and sometimes 3 sides .

Why doesn't it work here ?

[SuRReaL88]

That Elephant pic is class

[Humble Warrior]

AI still uses BS TORCHES!!

Didn`t take long to find out. Started a new campaign got attacked by Iberius whatever. It had no siege engines. The General ran up to the gate and threw torches at the gate!


The logic of wait until you have made sieges engines do not yet apply to this game.

What`s the point of making the siege AI work if torches can always be used to burn huge iron gates anyway?

I hope CA remove the torches for the finished patch.

Perhaps a badly designed game can`t be rescued...

I`m glad I didn`t get too excited.

[Epic28]

AI still uses BS TORCHES!!

Didn`t take long to find out. Started a new campaign got attacked by Iberius whatever. It had no siege engines. The General ran up to the gate and threw torches at the gate!


The logic of wait until you have made sieges engines do not yet apply to this game.

What`s the point of making the siege AI work if torches can always be used to burn huge iron gates anyway?

I hope CA remove the torches for the finished patch.

Perhaps a badly designed game can`t be rescued...

I`m glad I didn`t get too excited.

This is exactly what I assumed would happen...

Everyone is testing this updated Siege AI in custom battles where they're already giving the AI siege weapons and handholding the AI into attacking their settlements.

The problem is that the AI does not wait to build the proper siege engines in a campaign once they reach your city. They immediately assault it with CA's gifting of ladders (makes no sense) rather than actually "siege" while build towers, rams and ladders as turns progress (like every old TW title achieved).

For the sake of being optimistic, Humble maybe you just hit the rare occurrence where the AI didn't see waiting as a valid option. Maybe play a few more turns and see if it was just an unlucky occurrence or if yet again the siege AI is meh.

I would recommend a Seleucid campaign due to their starting amount of regions and just sit back and declare war on everyone and just wait for the inevitable sieges to occur.

[Humble Warrior]

This is exactly what I assumed would happen...

Everyone is testing this updated Siege AI in custom battles where they're already giving the AI siege weapons and handholding the AI into attacking their settlements.

The problem is that the AI does not wait to build the proper siege engines in a campaign once they reach your city. They immediately assault it with CA's gifting of ladders (makes no sense) rather than actually "siege" while build towers, rams and ladders as turns progress (like every old TW title achieved).

For the sake of being optimistic, Humble maybe you just hit the rare occurrence where the AI didn't see waiting as a valid option. Maybe play a few more turns and see if it was just an unlucky occurrence or if yet again the siege AI is meh.

I would recommend a Seleucid campaign due to their starting amount of regions and just sit back and declare war on everyone and just wait for the inevitable sieges to occur.

I did instantly quit when that Cavalry general ran up to the gate and took out torches from his butt (or the horse`s butt) to throw at the gate. however, i will keep testing. If this siege AI is fixed, then I can`t see why CA can`t program the CAI to simply tell the AI to wait or abort a siege >if no seige equipment. The siege AI so far is almost to RTW1 standards if they can get rid of the torches. However, if they don`t remove torches I`ll just go on to another of the better games that do sieges right and forget CA.

[Epic28]

I did instantly quit when that Cavalry general ran up to the gate and took out torches from his butt (or the horse`s butt) to throw at the gate. however, i will keep testing. If this siege AI is fixed, then I can`t see why CA can`t program the CAI to simply tell the AI to wait or abort a siege >if no seige equipment. The siege AI so far is almost to RTW1 standards if they can get rid of the torches. However, if they don`t remove torches I`ll just go on to another of the better games that do sieges right and forget CA.

What did the AI do with the automatic ladders during the siege?

[baptistus]

Everyone is testing this updated Siege AI in custom battles where they're already giving the AI siege weapons and handholding the AI into attacking their settlements.

that is why during my previous tests, I only give three or four siege equipments (for example two ladders, one tower and one battle ram or no battle rams) to see what happens.
I can not test this patch and to make a video as I did everytime there was a beta patch, so I can not say if it works.

[DramaBelli]

Old annoying but NECESSARY question:

---is it savagame compatible?---

I'm not far from complete Hannibal at the gates dlc with Carthage and I would not be kicked off by this game cause of 14 beta thanks

[AngryPolack]

For anybody having siege stuttering/lag issues, it seems (for me at least) unit size seems to be the problem. Dropping down from ultra to medium there was zero lag, and large unit sizes slight lag. Ultra was terrible. Haven't tested it very long but I think that's it.

[Humble Warrior]

Come to think of it, the General WAS part of two armies and I guess he was a reinforcement unit. I zoomed in on him first because I couldn`t find the main army. Also I didn`t realise they got automatic ladders now? I just quit when I saw the General start chucking torches...


I will reload it and have a better look, guess I`ll have to turn flags on for testing...

Will report back...

[Cavalier]

Come to think of it, the General WAS part of two armies and I guess he was a reinforcement unit. I zoomed in on him first because I couldn`t find the main army. Also I didn`t realise they got automatic ladders now? I just quit when I saw the General start chucking torches...


I will reload it and have a better look, guess I`ll have to turn flags on for testing...

Will report back...

I fought a defensive siege battle at Brundisium against two Roman armies where one of them was reinforcing. The army with ladders did everything correctly(although my archers had severe pathfinding issues) while the cav. general of the reinforcing army rode to the gate and started chucking torches. HOWEVER, he only threw like two times before quitting and joining up with the rest of the (now) quite large army that all climbed the ladders.

So for the official patch CA should do some fine-tuning regarding reinforcing armies, as well as try and correct the pathfinding issues on walls. Pissed me off greatly.

Another thing, there's some weird lag going on during defensive battles(in barbarian cities mostly) which I have no idea where it comes from. pressing TAB sometimes fixes the issue. Reminds me of the lag that occurred like back in patch 5 or so.

[Humble Warrior]

OK, my Roman city was attacked by 2 armies. the 1st was the General on his own and second was the main force comprised of Etruscan italian spearmen and Levy skirmisher. I think I see what happened here...

Because the General is cavalry he has no siege equipment, and his reinforcements can`t bring any, so it`s torchy time!

Not impressed. They need to reconfigure what the AI does in cases like this to make sieging a realistic and enjoyable prospect like Rome 1 and MTW2 are. It really is pointless having an AI that can use siege engines, but doesn`t need them anyway because- Torches!


Hopefully CA are on the ball with this and will fix by main Patch release. So my caution remains.

p.s. pretty much like Cavalier says.

[Cavalier]

OK, my Roman city was attacked by 2 armies. the 1st was the General on his own and second was the main force comprised of Etruscan italian spearmen and Levy skirmisher. I think I see what happened here...

Because the General is cavalry he has no siege equipment, and his reinforcements can`t bring any, so it`s torchy time!

Not impressed. They need to reconfigure what the AI does in cases like this to make sieging a realistic and enjoyable prospect like Rome 1 and MTW2 are. It really is pointless having an AI that can use siege engines, but doesn`t need them anyway because- Torches!


Hopefully CA are on the ball with this and will fix by main Patch release. So my caution remains.

p.s. pretty much like Cavalier says.

Did the reinforcing army start at basically the other side of the map? Mine did when he attempted to torch the gate.

I think that if the reinforcing army starts near the original sieging army it shouldn't bother with the gate and just join forces.

[Humble Warrior]

Yes. I killed off the torch-throwing General while the enemy army made its way round. It then came to the gate and started chucking its torches.

I think that if the reinforcing army starts near the original sieging army it shouldn't bother with the gate and just join forces.

And get some ladders!
Makes sense. Let`s hope CA see it that way.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

can you guys still use the normal old unit packs?

[Aenima]

It's a shame that the AI building siege equipment still seems to be hit and miss but it really sounds like things have improved!

[Hetairos]

I actually think that the battles and the AI are quiet good. When speaking of the battle map we only need little changes:

Graphics
- Lighting: replacing the white round night lighting with many small yellowy torches / torch lighting.

AI
- Cohesive Battle Line: AI behavior fix of shuffling and spreading around all the time (like the expansion ALX did with Rome:Total War back than)
- Sallying Forth / Retreat: Armies able to sally forth from cities and even from walled cities. The sally forth option we have now is a fine addition, but not the same. We need sally forth in front of the city with the option to retreat.
- Reserves: The AI being able to work with multiple line formations such as triple acies keeping the back rows disengaged using them when in need and not charge everything in just at the beginning.
- 3 Dynamic AI Behavior Stances: AI being able to "evaluate" the situation on battlefield:

1.) Sally forth / Rush vs weaker or less balanced army builds, aggressively attacking. That way you also be able to ambush on the battlefield (why else do we need a new LoS if the AI is sitting idle until you attack him???)
2.) Defensive state vs equal, stronger or more balanced army builds adequately seeking to defense.
3.) Retreat what he can if the odds go against the AI (e.g. he is simply loosing badly and trying to save whats left OR reinforcements arriving (we need reinforcements to be able to be deployed on start, to enter on start and to be delayed (depending where they are stationed on the campaign map. if right next to your army be able to simply deploy them, medium range arrive at beginning, further away as reinforcements)).

Mechanics
- Blobbing: Something has to be done that entire units don't blob into each other. The area per soldier must be increased or something and not be able to walk everyone into one big ball but units to have to queue behind of each other and units staying next to each other in their own cohorts.
- Terrain vs Range: Range combat being affected by terrain height.

Various
- Unit Formations: Formations must be fixed.
- Battle Map Editor

New Concept
- City Districts: Its just a new concept that popped into my mind combining the experiences of all previous TW games and Rome II. We could have several city districts where units fight and once you loose the local battle the district is lost and everyone else will retreat and reform in the next inner ring until we at the end fight in the city centre with the last remaining troops.

[Causeless]

I actually think that the battles and the AI are quiet good. When speaking of the battle map we only need little changes:

Graphics
- Lighting: replacing the white round night lighting with many small yellowy torches / torch lighting.

AI
- Cohesive Battle Line: AI behavior fix of shuffling and spreading around all the time (like the expansion ALX did with Rome:Total War back than)
- Sallying Forth / Retreat: Armies able to sally forth from cities and even from walled cities. The sally forth option we have now is a fine addition, but not the same. We need sally forth in front of the city with the option to retreat.
- Reserves: The AI being able to work with multiple line formations such as triple acies keeping the back rows disengaged using them when in need and not charge everything in just at the beginning.
- 3 Dynamic AI Behavior Stances: AI being able to "evaluate" the situation on battlefield:

1.) Sally forth / Rush vs weaker or less balanced army builds, aggressively attacking. That way you also be able to ambush on the battlefield (why else do we need a new LoS if the AI is sitting idle until you attack him???)
2.) Defensive state vs equal, stronger or more balanced army builds adequately seeking to defense.
3.) Retreat what he can if the odds go against the AI (e.g. he is simply loosing badly and trying to save whats left OR reinforcements arriving (we need reinforcements to be able to be deployed on start, to enter on start and to be delayed (depending where they are stationed on the campaign map. if right next to your army be able to simply deploy them, medium range arrive at beginning, further away as reinforcements)).

Mechanics
- Blobbing: Something has to be done that entire units don't blob into each other. The area per soldier must be increased or something and not be able to walk everyone into one big ball but units to have to queue behind of each other and units staying next to each other in their own cohorts.
- Terrain vs Range: Range combat being affected by terrain height.

Various
- Unit Formations: Formations must be fixed.
- Battle Map Editor

New Concept
- City Districts: Its just a new concept that popped into my mind combining the experiences of all previous TW games and Rome II. We could have several city districts where units fight and once you loose the local battle the district is lost and everyone else will retreat and reform in the next inner ring until we at the end fight in the city centre with the last remaining troops.

I don't think getting a bonus to ranged units isn't possible due to the way the range markers are rendered - they are simple cones. They couldn't be cones if archers could fire further downhill, instead the outline would need to dynamically move in and out according to the height the archer is at and the height of the ground they are firing at.