hoplites

[mephhhh]

what the hell is wrong with these guys? theyre so weak, i must be using them wrong.

can someone please educate me on how to use the hoplites and phalanx properly? they keep getting pushed through the middle by lesser infantry

[KAM 2150]

Most people report that they are overpowered and near unbeatable.

[giannism13]

They are not meant to be on the center of your frontline, except the heroes of sparta and royal spartans. The best use is to have them at your flanks to guar your rear and flank. If you have pikes, hold with them the enemy and with your hoplites hammer the enemy on his rear. Also, they are not weak. Of course they cant, well most of them, to deal with praetorians and other very heavy meele infantry, but they can take out enemy cavalry with ease and other heavy units. They phalanx formation isnt for attack but it improves their defence and bracing.

[luck_ponte]

There are three factors to bear in mind: difficulty you're playing, what kind of hoplites you're using and what troops are you up against. They are tough units that can go well against same-tiered infantry and even cav (I actually tend to use them in the main line to hold off the enemy, much like pikes), but you can't expect a levy hoplite hold the line against more elite units in legendary

[Menulo]

the main problem i have with hoplites is that they cant fight with swords, although this was a normal tactic when the spear didnt work. but once again CA cursed us with units that cant switch weapons.

from a balance point of vieuw they are useless, since they only have 2 initiative they lose or break even to every "light" hoplite that has 3 and is only half the cost (or even garrison). unless you want to balance them yourself there is no point in even useing them over light hoplites. i gave all hoplites 3 initiative, and although perhaps a bit OP they dont lose vs spears anymore.

[Butan]

Hoplites quality matter a lot in the question.

Citizen hoplites, even in phalanx formation, do not have a strong survivability.
Royal spartans, even in a long thin line can hold, and push as well, against almost any threat placed in front of them.


I would say that most hoplites are, on average, good to excellent in phalanx formation, but can then only defend a narrow space. Without formations, they are mediocre (except elite units) at anything else than blocking a unit path long enough to deal with them with another stronger unit.

[BunnyPoopCereal]

Hoplites quality matter a lot in the question.

Citizen hoplites, even in phalanx formation, do not have a strong survivability.
Royal spartans, even in a long thin line can hold, and push as well, against almost any threat placed in front of them.

I would say that most hoplites are, on average, good to excellent in phalanx formation, but can then only defend a narrow space. Without formations, they are mediocre (except elite units) at anything else than blocking a unit path long enough to deal with them with another stronger unit.

Exactly. Their role is to hold the line long enough for you to flank.

[mephhhh]

so basically what i do with hoplites is to:

flank the enemy formation
use the phalanx formation button when holding a line
just right click on the enemy units?

can i just walk them into the enemy formation? its annoying having to right clikc each unit onto a specific enemy unit.

is there a video that gives a nice explanation or showcases good hoplite usage in DEI?

[kais246]

I think you might be expecting the wrong thing from your hoplites. As others have stated, they are designed to hold a line while other units go around them and get to work in the back of the opposing army. Regular hoplites (I think they are just called Hoplites) are very capable of holding a line, especially with phalanx activated, for extended durations as long as they are not being flanked themselves. Also keep in mind that hoplites will be decimated by ranged weapons in both standard and phalanx formation.

In my standard sort of play on recommended difficulty I'll generally have a large line of hoplites with swordsman placed specifically to go around the back. Cavalry are obviously also very good for this. You can even use more hoplites to flank but it will take a loooong time to do some heavy damage against mid to high tier troops.

In regards to the right clicking, you'll want to select a target for each separate unit of hoplites to retain the formation of your line. If the enemy is coming to you though, feel free to just let them wash up against your shields

[700kg]

i suggest that your read some greek military history especially phalanx formation.... this will answer your question...

[Butan]

Its more about stats than history...

Low melee attack/damage + high melee defense + high bonus melee defense with phalanx formation = good to hold, but doesnt hit much

[700kg]

Its more about stats than history...

Low melee attack/damage + high melee defense + high bonus melee defense with phalanx formation = good to hold, but doesnt hit much

............. as known from history greece military tactics contains a defensiv formation from the phalanx to hold the enemy and hit it with the kav.

and this is how to play fractions with phalanx (pik/hoplits).. is this game.... according to this the romans stay offensive to hit the enemy with the power of the whole legion... and so the game is implemented. You have to play greece fraction different as the romans...

[Butan]

Some things in DeI go in accordance with history, but some do not: Rome 2 gameplay can only simulate history that far. Even more when there is 2-3 theories on how such soldiers actually fought at all I prefer to bet on stats and use history as a cool background, at least until DeI is finished in unit balance.

[mephhhh]

then how the hell do i get through the early game as the greeks? specifically athens/sparta?

its like the only units i have are hoplites and levy phalanx. it takes sooooooooooooooooooooooooo long to kill enemy units...and i usually lose as well

[BunnyPoopCereal]

then how the hell do i get through the early game as the greeks? specifically athens/sparta?

its like the only units i have are hoplites and levy phalanx. it takes sooooooooooooooooooooooooo long to kill enemy units...and i usually lose as well

You'll have some cav available to flank, Even use the same hoplites to flank if you have nothing else.

[KAM 2150]

The whole point of DeI is to make combat slower. Some factions fight slower, some faster. For example barbarian vs barbarian battle will be slow, while greek vs greek will be very slow.

Hoplite nations are very easy to play, since their units can beat pretty much everything. What you have to do is to hold the line and use skirmishers and cavalry to flank and kill enemy units. My personal advice is to buy a unit or two of tarantince cav or mercenary tarantince cav, those guys will slaughter enemy units when they fire on the back of enemy formation and they will have no problem with slaughtering enemy shirmishers or charging in the rear of enemy formations. My tarantine unit was mostly ending battles with around 300-500 kills.

Do not expect units in DeI to kill their enemies fast in frontal combat.

[Butan]

Hoplites armies indeed are quite slow to finish a battle's job.

Always recruit other kind of troops, at worst mercenaries.

[700kg]

i current play with macedonia on very hard and the combination pic phalanx with hoplit and heavy kav is just fine and works if you play it as mentioned. At the beginning u can recruit light pic phalanx, heavy hoplits, javelins and u have 2 heavy kav (general) and this is enough to handle with all enemies at the beginning (Tyls, Athen and Sparta). Later u can recruit heavy pic phalanx and heavy kav.....

[mephhhh]

BUT I WANT TO MAKE A TRADITIONAL GREEK ARMY!!!!!!!!

correct me if im wrong but i want to make a traditional greek army composed of hoplites and a few javelins. id really rather not hire cav. i really like infantry only armys, and i really dislike cavalry. i can put up with small amounts archers and slingers but cavalry just kind of bones me a little.

if an infantry only army is not viable in DEI then that means i have to play another mod, and i dont want to play another mod i wanna play DEI it reminds me of EB which i have so many fond memories of.

[zombieflanders]

BUT I WANT TO MAKE A TRADITIONAL GREEK ARMY!!!!!!!!


correct me if im wrong but i want to make a traditional greek army composed of hoplites and a few javelins. id really rather not hire cav. i really like infantry only armys, and i really dislike cavalry. i can put up with small amounts archers and slingers but cavalry just kind of bones me a little.

You're wrong. Or more precisely, you're off by a couple hundred years. The "traditional" Greek armies that you're talking about mainly existed in the various Peloponnesian and Persian wars from before Philip II and Alexander's reforms, but would have been pretty useless by the turn of the 3rd century BC. The post-Alexander armies would have depended much more on phalangites (i.e., pikemen) for the center of the line, with only a few hoplites to protect the flanks. A number of native and allied light infantry (mainly skirmishers such as peltasts and bowmen) would round out the infantry. Then there would usually be several units of cavalry to make the hammer for the pikemen's anvil, and depending on the faction, it would often be elite and/or heavy cav like the various Hetaroi (Companion Cav) or cataphracts, especially the further east you went among the Hellenics. Some (Baktria, Epirus, Ptolemetai, Seleukidai) made regular use of a unit or two of elephants and/or chariots. Athens and Sparta, being allied with or clients of the Antigonids, may have had variations of Alexander's type of army, but had seriously declined in military power since their heydays fighting Xerxes and each other. Sparta, in particular, had gone from the propaganda days of the 300 to being deliberately ignored by Alexander when referring to the greatness of his armies. A proper Hellenic army from the original city-states would have reflected the new way or become irrelevant like Sparta did, so if you want to create a Spartan or Athenian empire you'll have to follow in Alexander's footsteps at first. And in the late-game, there's benefits to adapting to a more Roman legionary+auxiliary cav style of fighting (as Mithridates VI of Pontus attempted to do), which is why DeI provides Hellenic factions with late-game units such as the Thorax Legionaries as well as the AOR system.

if an infantry only army is not viable in DEI then that means i have to play another mod, and i dont want to play another mod i wanna play DEI it reminds me of EB which i have so many fond memories of.

An infantry-only army is only (barely) viable in vanilla because they got the most attention from CA. It's not how warfare occurred in the time period, and nor should it be so in the game or DeI. Honestly, if you want to play the game both as historically accurate as you can and effectively as a Hellenic faction, you'll have to throw in some cav. That's how it was during the game's time period, and that's how the mechanics work.