The Detroit Water Shutoffs

[The Unknown General]

DETROIT — At least 300 demonstrators marched through downtown streets on Friday, protesting a move by the city’s Water Department to force tens of thousands of delinquent customers to pay up or face a cutoff in service. From the Cobo Center to Hart Plaza on the banks of the Detroit River, protesters chanted, “Fight, fight; water is a human right.” Others carried placards that read “Thirsty for Justice.”

The Detroit Water and Sewerage Department began cracking down on accounts in March. The number of delinquencies swelled over the winter when the department, fearing frozen pipes, continued to provide service to customers with past due accounts. From March to June 30, the department interrupted service to 15,200 customers, said Greg Eno, a department spokesman. About 92,000 customers are at risk of having service cut off, meaning they are at least 60 days past due or more than $150 behind.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/us/protesters-picket-detroit-over-move-to-shut-off-water.html?_r=0

I'm somewhat conflicted with this. On one hand from what I understand this is mostly affecting poor people, but on the other you have to pay your bills. I mean you cant just stop paying your bills and not expect your services to be cut off. What I find funny is left pages on Facebook like Ayn Rand collected Social Security way water is a human right. So what should the government pay for everything?

[Condottiere 40K]

Some charity could drive water trucks into those neighbourhoods and charge a nominal sum per bucket.

[The Unknown General]

Some charity could drive water trucks into those neighbourhoods and charge a nominal sum per bucket.

My problem with the charity solution is the fact it depends on human kindness, which seems to be in short supplies these days. Also if you were to give incentives to donate like tax write offs, thats less money in the collective pot.

[Condottiere 40K]

At some point, the defaulters will come to the conclusion that piped water is far more convenient, while at the same time not violating their right to water access.

[The Unknown General]

Perhaps if the minimum wage was increased, they would be able to afford their water bills.

[Denny Crane!]

Perhaps if the minimum wage was increased, they would be able to afford their water bills.

If it was that simple then how do you account for other parts of the USA with the same minimum wage being able to afford their water bills. Including places that are not the cheapest places to buy a property in the USA. Perhaps minimum wage isn't that relevant?

[The Unknown General]

That opens up another can of worms.

How many are on welfare?

Also, isn't Detroit bankrupt?

Well according to Americans Against the Tea Party, 38.1 percent of Detroit’s residents live below the poverty line. And yes Detroit is indeed bankrupt, but thats the munipical government not private businesses that could pay their employers a liveable wage.

If it was that simple then how do you account for other parts of the USA with the same minimum wage being able to afford their water bills. Including places that are not the cheapest places to buy a property in the USA. Perhaps minimum wage isn't that relevant?

Again using Americans Against the Tea Party, the city approved a whopping8.7 percent rate hike for water in June. As the cost of living increases shouldn't also the minimum wage?

[Phier]

Well according to Americans Against the Tea Party, 38.1 percent of Detroit’s residents live below the poverty line. And yes Detroit is indeed bankrupt, but thats the munipical government not private businesses that could pay their employers a liveable wage.

Its cute how you think those people are hard working but just can't make ends meat to pay their water bills.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Well according to Americans Against the Tea Party, 38.1 percent of Detroit’s residents live below the poverty line. And yes Detroit is indeed bankrupt, but thats the munipical government not private businesses that could pay their employers a liveable wage.


Again using Americans Against the Tea Party, the city approved a whopping8.7 percent rate hike for water in June. As the cost of living increases shouldn't also the minimum wage?

That's actually a very interesting subject, since the country where I live, is one of the only countries with an "automated indexing system" It means that if the prices of certain goods and services like food, cars, utilities etc... rise, all wages in this country have to rise with them to ensure that people can keep up with inflation, and afford to keep living as they do, with the rising of the index, landlords are also allowed to raise rents.

It's something that many want to abolish, especially the Liberals and extreme liberals because it hurts business and investments, and more profit could be made if businesses wouldn't be forced to raise wages with prices

[Condottiere 40K]

That opens up another can of worms.

How many are on welfare?

Also, isn't Detroit bankrupt?

[IronBrig4]

A few months ago, a collection of conspiracy nuts, skinheads, and deranged "militia" rushed to defend a clearly demented rancher who owed millions in fees. Curiously, the same lunatics are remaining quiet when some of the nation's poorest are going without a basic life need. I guess they think white people in cowboy hats are more important.

[Exarch]

A few months ago, a collection of conspiracy nuts, skinheads, and deranged "militia" rushed to defend a clearly demented rancher who owed millions in fees. Curiously, the same lunatics are remaining quiet when some of the nation's poorest are going without a basic life need. I guess they think white people in cowboy hats are more important.

it can't be about race anymore because now that there's a black President, America is no longer a racist country

[Symphony]

A few months ago, a collection of conspiracy nuts, skinheads, and deranged "militia" rushed to defend a clearly demented rancher who owed millions in fees. Curiously, the same lunatics are remaining quiet when some of the nation's poorest are going without a basic life need. I guess they think white people in cowboy hats are more important.

I'm really struggling to draw any kind of parallel between a single rancher involved in a dispute/armed standoff against Federal troops in Wyoming and a municipal demonstration regarding public utilities in Michigan. Can you help me out?

Perhaps if the minimum wage was increased, they would be able to afford their water bills.

I seriously doubt it.

Leaving aside the fact that giving everybody an extra dollar per hour in a market/mixed economy simply means that most everything ends up costing more, leaving not much net gain for utilities, my understanding of the issue in Detroit is that there simply isn't sufficient work; having been in some similar situations myself, my guess is that the majority of these people are either unemployed or dramatically underemployed.

When you're dead-ass poor, there's a cycle you go through with utilities. When one comes up for disconnect, you call the utility in question and work out some sort of payment arrangement; it's never for the full amount, so you're effectively just rolling the balance over to next month and digging a deeper hole, but it buys you some time. You repeat in a round-robin fashion with all 3 of the Big 3 (gas, meaning natural gas/heating oil, electric, and water), until the minimum amount they want to prevent the disconnect is simply more than you can pay, and you get shut off. The net effect is, it takes a fairly long period of delinquency to actually get disconnected. Every place I've ever lived, water has been by far the cheapest of the three; Detroit would have to be seriously weird for that to be substantially different. Add that all up, and the cheapest bill (and arguably the most critical) has gone unpaid for a pretty long time. That tells me most of these folks are actually or effectively unemployed. Multiplying zero hours by a larger wage still equals zero.

Given that, as people have pretty thoroughly covered, Detroit's not likely to see any kind of explosive job growth any time soon, there simply may not be a good answer to this one; sadly, the most effective that comes to mind is for some charitable organization to step in and help these people....not by paying their water bill, but by helping them relocate to someplace where they have a legitimate prayer of paying it themselves.

[Condottiere 40K]

Is Detroit's water still public property?

[The Unknown General]

I believe its still public, but I've heard they're thinking about privatizing it.

[Denny Crane!]

8.9% of $50 is nothing when the average rent is say $200 less than other major cities

[Himster]

Three words: Robocop with watergun.

[Condottiere 40K]

Come quietly, or there will be ... bubbles.

[Stívarðr Reynitré]

If you don't pay your bills, you don't get services.

Those are the expectations I live by; those are the expectations everyone else lives by.

Tough.

[GreyFox]

I must commend America for effectively criminalising poverty.