Invaders! Do they simply become substitute armies?

[Amorphos]

Invaders! Do they simply become substitute armies?

After reading about a recent study – the largest of its kind in england, which showed that 'england' is up to 80% Celt Iberian, the same as the ancient Britons and even as far back as the so called 'beaker people', yet we have been successfully invaded many times. So how can it be that we end up more or less the same as we were originally? My theory is that invaders take over the position of defenders, and that as they would mainly have been men [male soldiers], then they would have gradually been worn down by successive attacks whilst breeding into the original populous.

I wonder if we would find that gauls still inhabit france and northern italy?

I know it is not always the case as some populations in history have been almost completely exterminated, or have migrated. Yet it appears that in many cases it all goes around in a circle ending up similar to the original case of the matter.

It also appears that bede and others twisted the truths to create 'england' by misleading an illiterate population into believing that they were all anglo-Saxons – as we still do. If this is so then should the history books be rewritten 'truthfully'? And should we rename England Scotland and Wales as Britain seeing as we [and the Irish] are all mainly Celt Iberians, or is it a cultural thing – that even the welsh adopted anglo-Saxon ways e.g. Square housing etc.

[Tom Paine]

Its very much cultural; I wouldn't say the raving Scots or the strange Welsh had the same culture as us poofy English (stereotypes rock :wink: )

Invaders become substitute armies, but the reason they do not stay genetically is because they are outnumbered, every time; the minority cannot really become the majority when they interbreed with the majority and are outnumbered many to one by the majority.

[Amorphos]

Yes i agree TGS, although we were taught that the anglo-saxons became the majority via migrations from germany. Indeed the angli apparently upped sticks and moved here as a complete tribal migration. Alas perhaps all this happened over along period and hence they were assimilated.

how much of our culture is thence a lie though!

[LSJ]

It appears that the population of a conquered land is generally given the name of the conquerers, if the conquered land remain under control for at least a generation.
The people we call "the French" were really Gallic people, with a Frankish minority among them (now they have a large immigrant population who definately know their ethnicities). During the Frankish invasions of Roman-controlled Gaul, and the following occupation, the Frankish people would have been absorbed into the Gallic population due to the sheer imbalance in numbers between the two. In the following decades, the people of "Frankish" cities would fight for their old enemies proudly, and be taught that they're Franks since birth, while in truth they are Gallic people.
So eventually you have a "Frankish" army made mostly out of "Frankish" recruits who are actually different groups of conquered people, probably 3% being real Franks, the other 97% being enemies of the Franks unknowingly killing their own people and being proud of it.

That happens all over the place. In WWII, the allied armies bombed the hell out of "German" cities, that were sometimes made up of mostly "German" citizens, 95% of which being French in heritage, but being labeled German, and killed. Possibly by "French" pilots, who are actually of German descent, but raised in old Germanic lands controlled by France. War is crazy - you don't know who you are really fighting.

Heh, you Scots are probably either Irish or Pict Celts in reality. Scotland didn't really exist before - it was a country created by Irish people who sailed to mainland Britain. Well, that explains the drinking.

[Amorphos]

Ha ha yes DP, war is madness, i enjoyed your post, it put much into perspective!

[Tom Paine]

Yes i agree TGS, although we were taught that the anglo-saxons became the majority via migrations from germany. Indeed the angli apparently upped sticks and moved here as a complete tribal migration. Alas perhaps all this happened over along period and hence they were assimilated.

how much of our culture is thence a lie though!

None, culture and genetics are not related. Culturally the invaders have superseded, in general. Genetically in Britain they did not.

[Big War Bird]

In the case of England, with the exception of the Saxon invasion, of which little is known for certain, all the times it has been invaded it has been a miltary effort to replace the ruling class, not the people on the land. The Norman conquest of 1066 theoretically could have succeeded with the death of just one man, King Harold. As it happened a single battle with just several thousand soldiers largely decided the matter. Likewise the Roman invasion hundreds of years before was not followed by mass migration of Italians.

However, England's example is not universal. The Greeks of Alexander's time are largely gone from Greece. What passes as greek now are helenized slavs. Likewise most of native populations of the Americas were wiped out, being replaced by European and African immigrants.

And come to think of it, why the heck would anyone move to England anyway? :tooth:

[Tom Paine]

In the case of England, with the exception of the Saxon invasion, of which little is known for certain, all the times it has been invaded it has been a miltary effort to replace the ruling class, not the people on the land. The Norman conquest of 1066 theoretically could have succeeded with the death of just one man, King Harold. As it happened a single battle with just several thousand soldiers largely decided the matter. Likewise the Roman invasion hundreds of years before was not followed by mass migration of Italians.

However, England's example is not universal. The Greeks of Alexander's time are largely gone from Greece. What passes as greek now are helenized slavs. Likewise most of native populations of the Americas were wiped out, being replaced by European and African immigrants.

Yeah, I would have pointed out those examples, if i hadn't been so intent to show that there was no cultural lie... thanks BWB.

And come to think of it, why the heck would anyone move to England anyway? :tooth:

Same reasons we get invaded; resources. Also dogs.

In all seriousness, we can semi-block Atlantic access from much of Europe, if we have a strong navy; we have a variety of natural resources including oil; and we'd be a stagnig post for invasion of France, as we were in 1944 for its counter-invasion.

[Amorphos]

that would greatly germinize the celt-iberian genome. So that could not be the case.

Hence the twenty% maybe? Comparitively only a tiny number would have came with the armies.

Historically we have been lied to though, i wonder what people in the 6th century considered themselves – britons yes, then suddenly after a few books we consider ourselves anglo saxons! perhaps not yet something seams amis, ah well thats why they call it the dark ages.

ha yes who would want to come to england - especially when america is full of celt iberians! :tooth:

[the Eternal Cocoon]

Invaders! Do they simply become substitute armies?

My theory is that invaders take over the position of defenders, and that as they would mainly have been men [male soldiers], then they would have gradually been worn down by successive attacks whilst breeding into the original populous.

so if they(for example germans) occupy britian, and are mostly male, and are breeding with the population, that would greatly germinize the celt-iberian genome. So that could not be the cuase.

Whats more reasonable is that they were invaded my similar ethnicities, fellow celts.