Is it fair to compare modded Rome 1 to unmodded Rome 2?

[Totalheadache]

If people want to compare a modded Rome1 to a vanilla Rome2 such is their right...

Being fair is somewhat irrelevant.

Moreover who the hell cares?

I'd say it's better to compare vanilla to vanilla but if people think that a modded1 Rome is better than a Rome2 fair enough. As long as they list their reasons.

As I say obvious and pointless thread this.

Or this is some kind of "oh all this negativity towards Rome2 is because people are remembering playing a modded Rome1"

I think thats what lies here. Op doesnt like the flack Rome2 is getting so he is making excuses. A bit lame no?

[PointOfViewGun]

If people want to compare a modded Rome1 to a vanilla Rome2 such is their right...
Being fair is somewhat irrelevant.
Moreover who the hell cares?
I'd say it's better to compare vanilla to vanilla but if people think that a modded1 Rome is better than a Rome2 fair enough. As long as they list their reasons.
As I say obvious and pointless thread this.
Or this is some kind of "oh all this negativity towards Rome2 is because people are remembering playing a modded Rome1"
I think thats what lies here. Op doesnt like the flack Rome2 is getting so he is making excuses. A bit lame no?

For someone who already posted 4 posts in this thread it's rather ironic of you talk about the thread being pointless. Does that make your posts equally pointless?
It's also rather hilarious of you to ask who the hell cares at a time when we had over a 100 people participating in the poll.

[Totalheadache]

For someone who already posted 4 posts in this thread it's rather ironic of you talk about the thread being pointless. Does that make your posts equally pointless?
It's also rather hilarious of you to ask who the hell cares at a time when we had over a 100 people participating in the poll.

I dont see the irony I made my point several times for emphasis. Yes it's a bit ramming down of the truth but seems some of you need a slight reminder of what is normal common sense not the whingy "oh people are soo unfair". I mean what is this kindergarten?

P.s And who the hell cares is an expression. It means is this thread really necessary and what the hell does it achieve...?

Perhaps there are 100 bored people on the forum? Chance would be a good thing eh? (and it's not hilarious whatsover or my sense of humour is off).

Anyways have said my bit so have fun...

[PointOfViewGun]

I dont see the irony I made my point several times for emphasis. Yes it's a bit ramming down of the truth but seems some of you need a slight reminder of what is normal common sense not the whingy "oh people are soo unfair". I mean what is this kindergarten?
P.s And who the hell cares is an expression. It means is this thread really necessary and what the hell does it achieve...?
Perhaps there are 100 bored people on the forum? Chance would be a good thing eh?
Anyways have said my bit so have fun...

And now you have 5 posts in this thread you deemed pointless.

[Causeless]

I don't think the issue is the actual comparisons. It's the unfair way people criticize Rome 2 based upon it.

I can say "R2 has better graphics than *insert mod name here*", and I'd get a bunch of flak for unfairly comparing them, how Rome 2 had a higher budget and a new engine and all that. However, people, for some reason, can freely compare the other way - "RSII has X features that Rome 2 doesn't! CA is so lazy!", and nobody bats an eyelid. That's unfair, IMO. The double standards moreso than anything else.

[mikea4]

I don't think it is necessarily unfair for people to compare modded Rome 1 to un-modded Rome 2 simply for the fact that different people have different likes and dislikes. I think that it is okay for someone to say I prefer modded Rome 1 to un-modded rome 2 for reasons xyz. However, i think what can be construed as being unfair is when people believe that because something was included in a Rome 1 mod, it therefore should have been included in Rome 2. It becomes unfair when people call Rome 2 a terrible game based on features that are not present in the actual game but are present in Rome 1 mods.

Furthermore, how happy would the total war user base be with a total war game which took many of the features from Rome 1 mods and made you pay 60 dollars just to have them in a game with better graphics. I doubt many would be too happy about that.

[Totalheadache]

Stop trolling. It's so obvious.

Let me put into more basic terms for you! I dislike threads that are "whining about the the whiners""or give CA a break sob sob stories".

Just as bad as the "omg it's sooo crap" threads. Both serve no purpose yet to encourage flame/trolling. Ahhh I see we have pretty much have had 7 pages now...

[PointOfViewGun]

Stop trolling. It's so obvious.
Let me put into more basic terms for you! I dislike threads that are "whining about the the whiners""or give CA a break sob sob stories".
Just as bad as the "omg it's sooo crap" threads. Both serve no purpose yet to encourage flame/trolling. Ahhh I see we have pretty much have had 7 pages now...

And, 7. You really don't care about this thread... Why can't we have this discussion? Does it hurt anyone? Is it such a bad idea to instill some common sense into how to compare games from different eras? I really don't think so, and I certainly don't get what would force a person to go out of his way to point how pointless a thread is so many times...

[Lord Dakier]

If Rome 2 had the same moddability as Rome 1 then it would in every aspect replace Rome 1 and we all know this. Only due to the engine we have and the way the file structure is programmed is Rome 2 weaker. Half the community would stop complaining if we could change the map and settlements to how we liked.

What is needed is a web chat that answers the burning questions modders have. It may be worth messaging Craig and popping the question if they'd consider hosting one some afternoon so players can really come to understand what's possible and what CA themselves can do to help the community. This requires a very clear, patient and mature fan base with an honest Creative Assembly. If CA say we haven't added mapping tools cause it can affect sales of next games then the fans need to take that on the chin and accept it rather than grabbing their pitchforks.

[Causeless]

If Rome 2 had the same moddability as Rome 1 then it would in every aspect replace Rome 1 and we all know this. Only due to the engine we have and the way the file structure is programmed is Rome 2 weaker. Half the community would stop complaining if we could change the map and settlements to how we liked.

What is needed is a web chat that answers the burning questions modders have. It may be worth messaging Craig and popping the question if they'd consider hosting one some afternoon so players can really come to understand what's possible and what CA themselves can do to help the community. This requires a very clear, patient and mature fan base with an honest Creative Assembly. If CA say we haven't added mapping tools cause it can affect sales of next games then the fans need to take that on the chin and accept it rather than grabbing their pitchforks.

Almost everything is easily possible, except for map editing. The only reason we haven't seen mods on the scale of RSII or EB2 is because... well, Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Rome Total Realism

Mods take a lot of work, and that's the biggest reason no overhauls are as huge as the old Rome ones, which have had years upon years of work. Even despite this, some people are working on huge mods - check out the LOTR mods or the medieval era mods.

[redxavier]

Almost everything is easily possible, except for map editing. The only reason we haven't seen mods on the scale of RSII or EB2 is because... well, Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Rome Total Realism

This is somewhat disingenuous. We will never see mods on the same level as those for the RTW/MTW2 for Rome 2. Will we see diluted, re-skin versions eventually? Possibly. There are simply too many restrictions for any sort of worthy 'port', however, specifically with regard to building and character options.

We might, however, see these for STW2. Personally, I hope modders just skip trying to polish a turd and work on the more flexible and practical foundation of STW2.

[Causeless]

This is somewhat disingenuous. We will never see mods on the same level as those for the RTW/MTW2 for Rome 2. Will we see diluted, re-skin versions eventually? Possibly. There are simply too many restrictions for any sort of worthy 'port', however, specifically with regard to building and character options.

We might, however, see these for STW2. Personally, I hope modders just skip trying to polish a turd and work on the more flexible and practical foundation of STW2.

Other than maps, what can you mod in S2TW that you cannot in R2TW? Don't forget that Shogun 2 has pretty much no formation keeping.

[Lord Dakier]

Other than maps, what can you mod in S2TW that you cannot in R2TW? Don't forget that Shogun 2 has pretty much no formation keeping.

How many machine guns have you seen in Rome 2?

[Lord Dakier]

Almost everything is easily possible, except for map editing. The only reason we haven't seen mods on the scale of RSII or EB2 is because... well, Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Rome Total Realism

Mods take a lot of work, and that's the biggest reason no overhauls are as huge as the old Rome ones, which have had years upon years of work. Even despite this, some people are working on huge mods - check out the LOTR mods or the medieval era mods.

We haven't seen mods on the scale of EB2 or RS2 or my belvoed RTR because the modders are not in the same number as they used to be because we're not dealing with text files and TGA's. I only play DeI but even that isn't close to having the detail or 'fun' as Rome 1's major mods.

[riskymonk]

I'd be insulted if people started comparing europa baroborum 2 to rome 2. One took 7 years to develop from dedicated total war players who were constantly in touch with the community and its needs, the other took 3 years and saw £££ signs with the more shortcuts they took and of course left behind their core fans in order to target the casuals.

[Highwayleopard]

TBH, I think people look back on vanilla RTW1 with rose tinted goggles. For it's time, it was a pretty damn good game, don't get me wrong, but it's certainly not as amazing as some people point out I think. While, I reckon it is a decent expectation to have RTW2 to be held at a higher standard, you are comparing a game that had two expansion packs, basically, numerous patches and then several years (that, in some cases, is still continuing) of mod support. Whilst Rome 2 certainly wasn't that innovative compared, it is still in many ways a far better game.

[alQamar]

TBH, I think people look back on vanilla RTW1 with rose tinted goggles. For it's time, it was a pretty damn good game, don't get me wrong, but it's certainly not as amazing as some people point out I think. While, I reckon it is a decent expectation to have RTW2 to be held at a higher standard^1 , you are comparing a game that had two expansion packs^2, basically, numerous patches^3 and then several years (that, in some cases, is still continuing) of mod support. Whilst Rome 2 certainly wasn't that innovative compared^4, it is still in many ways a far better game.

you missed to mention the most important in your posting: "in my humble opinion".

I have to disagree with some certain statements you made Leo.

^1 :evolution is the keyword, who would expect that a subsequent game called Rome 2 - would be partly worse than the part 1, even when CA declines it is a successor to fortunate their situation.
^2 Rome 2 probably won't see any expansion pack as the tradition is to release DLCs. Rome 2 had more DLCs and content update as Rome 1 ever got (it may be argueable if they are same substantial)
^3: numerous patches? Rome 1 had 5 major patches, a 6th for compatibiliity with Alexander. So far Rome 2 had more than 14 patches (including minor patches) - while we might decrease the overall number because of a few compatibility patches aswell.
^4 with its lack for DX 11 featureset support like Tesselation and modern antialiasing methods, its pixelated shaders in the far view and LoD issues it is not only uninnovate but a step back compared to Shogun 2, which is technically the most complete game the TW series offers.

Just to add some glasses to the blind who is guessing some wear rose tinted ones

[redxavier]

It's not necessarily about what you can mod, remember, but the extent of the modding options available. As I already mentioned, you can do far more with settlements and characters in the other games. A specific example is the 3 trait limit for characters, which is extremely restrictive. You can't load up on dummy traits to do stuff with, which limits scripting. There are heaps of hardcoded mechanics in RTW2 that are impossible to get around and most overhaul mods are want to circumvent these. You can't gut RTW2, mods are stuck with the character-army and prestige-civil war systems; we can't even fix them.

[Causeless]

It's not necessarily about what you can mod, remember, but the extent of the modding options available. As I already mentioned, you can do far more with settlements and characters in the other games. A specific example is the 3 trait limit for characters, which is extremely restrictive. You can't load up on dummy traits to do stuff with, which limits scripting. There are heaps of hardcoded mechanics in RTW2 that are impossible to get around and most overhaul mods are want to circumvent these. You can't gut RTW2, mods are stuck with the character-army and prestige-civil war systems; we can't even fix them.

Those aren't so much limitations, they are game mechanics and design choices. Just because YOU personally prefer Shogun 2's mechanics doesn't mean that it's more mod-friendly - it just means that you feel like it's current mechanics fits the mods you want more. That's got nothing to do with how actually mod friendly it is, however.

I will admit it; there are some hardcoded things. But most things you've mentioned are just game design choices you disagree with.

[Butan]

Its unfair, but it stings just where it needs to.