My Dear Historians

[PikeStance]

My Dear Historians,

BTW, I made a proposal for the reorganization of the forum to allow historians on here to collaborate and discuss more easily. I would appreciate your feedback. If you are citizen, please visit: [Decision] Historical Community and offer feedback here or there and/ or support. If a non citizen, please comment below. Thanks!

Supporters: Quintus Hortensius Hortalus | Augustus Lucifer |

Proposal

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Hello, this idea has been sitting on my shelf for well over a year now. I have shared it with a few people here and there. In light of some of the suggestions made here, I thought I share it with the community at this time.

Below is a proposal I have been working on to have the Archivum officially part of TWC. I also have an idea about having a Codices- a repository for primary documents available online.

The Archivum is a repository of sources member can use to research the various areas they mod, write AARs or articles. It can be a very useful tool. I have personally spent hours collecting the information I have and I only collected about 1/20^th of the information available at various locations on the forum.

The one objection I’d received was that content has a hard enough time finding volunteers and this proposal would further strain the pool of potential volunteers. However, I feel the people who would express an interest in being part of this are a different “stock” of person who would volunteer for content.

A secondary function is to bring together a historical community. Currently, the forums listed below are spread across the entire site. By putting everything “under one roof” would bring these members together and allow for the development of another community. Since TW games are historical based, there is no reason why TWC should not fully embraced this community and provide a single location for people together discuss everything related to the subject.

Details Explained

Questions asked with answers in thread
The question is can we make a decision and can we implement it and appoint responsibilities to do so?
Ultimately, any decision made by the Curia must meet the admin's approval.
If there is no objections to the modding community I do not see any reason to object to this idea either. The lone exception would be the Archivum and the Archivist as this will created the use of site resources.

How could the problem be solved of the developers forum with all the research that is so much fragmented all over the place.
The proposal sets about to accomplish the same purpose as the Modding community proposal. It brings like- minded individuals together. The Historical Research areas are scattered and in a separate sub forum with the modding forum right now, so moving it so that they are all together will not create any additional burden. However, the increase visibility will promote its usefulness which will be more beneficial to the community at large.

What advantage will this history forum give?
TWC is more than just a gaming site. It provides excellent content as well. If you get an opportunity to read some of the content you will gain the same appreciation for as I have. Since TW games are history base, it is logical this site should promote the discussion of historical topics. Moreover as mods and AARs work to become more historically accurate having a single place for historical discussion can only facilitate further discussion and development of this under appreciated area of the forum. It is very much an "undiscovered country" on TWC.

What will be the ultimate incentive to start using the history forum over the developers forum.
First, I do not think one should be used more than the other.
Second, the two should and ought to compliment each other. This is one of the reasons why I "dusted off this idea" and presented it now. This seems as good as time as any. It doesn't make any sense to collate all of the modding forums while keeping the historical research/ history forums scattered among the various sub forums.

Explanation of the Archivists Duties and Responsibilities
The Archivist would be "librarians" of the repository.
The resources are not just websites, but also other mediums, like books, journals, etc... If you click on my signature you can view my "private/public" repository.
Sources will be cataloged by time periods and maintained by an archivist. The repository would be publicly accessible, however the role of the archivist would be to be an expert on what and where things are located. As far as the quality or reliability of the source, this would initially be the job of the individual researcher who recommend sources that should be included in the repository. Over time, the archivist as a group will over see the quality of the sources included in the repository; and, eventually, it would be expected that the archivist would go searching for quality sources.

Summary of Archivists Duties and Responsibilities

1. Archivist will be responsible for collecting and maintaining the repository in their respective fields.
2. There will be at least one archivist per period (including Asia and Naval Research)
3. Searching for quality sources.
4. Quality control would increasingly become the role of the archivists as a group.
5. Archivists would act as LM in their respective areas facilitating productive discussion and reporting any ToS violations.

The Archivist wouldn't just be any member of the site. The person would be expected to be well informed about the period he/she is responsible for.

======================================================================================================
TW History Center

Archivum [new]{Repository for websites, books, and other resources for historical research.}
---Secretum [new] {A place for Archivists to gather and discuss matters in private.}
---College of History [moved from VV] {This forum is for the pursuit of academic discussion and debate. All members are welcome but they will be held to a higher standard of civility and academic integrity.}
---Archaeology & Culture Forum [moved from VV]{The place where people can read/study articles about the historical human cultures through the recovery, documentation, analysis, and interpretation of material culture and environmental data, including architecture, artifacts, biofacts, and landscapes.}

Historical Research Center {A forum for historical research covering the TW games' period. Please try to provide sources.
---Ancient Period [moved from Rome II General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering Ancient Period in Europe and the Mediterranean World: 4th Millennium BCE to 5th Century CE}
---Medieval Period ^[1] [new] {A forum for historical research covering Medieval period from the 5th Century to the 15th Century.}
---Modern Period [moved from Empire General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering the time period from the 16^th to 18^th Century.}
---Napoleonic Age^[2] [moved from Napoleon General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering the game’s Napoleon era from 1792- 1815.}
---Contemporary Period^[2] [new]{A forum for historical research covering modern after Napoleonic Era to Contemporary era from 1815 to the present.}
---Asian History^[3][Moved from Shogun II General Discussion and renamed] {A forum for historical research covering Asian history from Ancient to Contemporary periods.}
---Naval History^[4] [Moved from Historical Research Forum from the Empire Forum] {Forum for historical research on ships and naval power throughout history }

Vestigia Vetustatis^[5] [all below moved from D&D] {A place to discuss history.}
---The Living Past {This is a forum where you can post photographs of your local historical places that have sparked the flame of interest in history.}
---Alternative History {For the discussion and posting of topics that discuss alternate or hypothetical historical events or persons.}
---Military History/ Wars & Battles [Moved from Historical Research Forum from the Empire Forum]{A forum to discuss the wars and battles.}

======================================================================================================

Additional Notes:

^[1] Medieval Total War General Discussion forum does not have a Historical Research Center, so one was created to allow for discussion of this period in history.
^[2] Contemporary Period was added to the list to accommodate the mods that cover the period post the Napoleonic Age. If for some reason the technical staff prefer to not add another forum to the list, the Napoleonic Period will be added to the Contemporary period.
^[3]Asian History forum is moved from the Shogun II General Discussion Forum. Also, it can be a place for discussion of Chinese, Korean, SE Asian, Indian and Steppe peoples histories throughout time. However, it will primarily cover the Ancient, Medieval, and High modern periods.
^[4] Naval History forum was moved from the Empire Research Center Forum within the General Discussion forum. With the inclusion of naval combat in new Total War games I expanded this forum to include these new areas rather than create a new sub- forum for each time period.
^[5] The VV was split. The sub- forum removed are for high academic discussion. Moving it to the Archivum would give the Archivist direct control. Since the issue would be qualitative discussion then it is unlikely to be any ToS violations in these forums. The Archivists role would be to ensure the quality not monitor adherence to the ToS. However, as noted above, Archivist would be responsible for reporting ToS for moderating, but also to guide the discussion into a more productive discourse.

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What are your thoughts?

[PikeStance]

OP changed to reflect suggestions

[hellheaven1987]

Unfortunately, there are not many serious discussions in VV nowadays so I don't see why your proposal would be better.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Unfortunately, there are not many serious discussions in VV nowadays so I don't see why your proposal would be better.

Yeah it's pretty much just "WW2 would be different if X" type threads.

I like this suggestion Pike. I would like it if the history articles in the Scriptorium could be added to this new thread. I feel that if people could show their articles and read other articles as part of a larger history section this would encourage more people to contribute to some quality pieces of work.
Maybe even giving prizes to the best articles of the month or year or even to the biggest contributors or something of the sort.

[PikeStance]

Unfortunately, there are not many serious discussions in VV nowadays so I don't see why your proposal would be better.

There are two dynamics at play here: [1] the creation of a specific area (History Community) would give a a greater sense of importance. The creation of a specific area would also help bring together members of the forum who value history. This group would in turn promote a higher standard of discussion. The VV is currently thrown in the other areas of discussion which are themselves plagues with poor quality postings. By removing the VV, this would take it out of that environment. [2] It is hoped that a "group" would form to help promote better and more academic discussion. I am told, the VV use to be a place where good historical discussion took place. It is not coincidental this was when the site had a dedicated group.

It would be interesting if there was a source library thread that was a sticky with one post and closed with only one mod able to edit the links to online translated editions of ancient books. I would like to see that in here. So I am for your idea. Oh and Pikestance +1 Rep.

What rep "G" I didn't get one...

I would like to see more systematization of this site. History section is good things to start off. Good division of eras. I think naval history is overkill.
Also it would be nice to have some sticky threads in it,with members's articles about most important thing that happened in that era in semi-academic user-friendly tone. Later if enough people are interested we can cover more specific events. With permission. of authors,we could use material from VV and research threads.

If you look at the OP you can see that the Naval section was moved from the Empire historical Research subforum. I simply moved it out of the Empire subforum and had it apply to other time periods- actually expanding its usefulness.

Yeah it's pretty much just "WW2 would be different if X" type threads.

I like this suggestion Pike. I would like it if the history articles in the Scriptorium could be added to this new thread. I feel that if people could show their articles and read other articles as part of a larger history section this would encourage more people to contribute to some quality pieces of work.
Maybe even giving prizes to the best articles of the month or year or even to the biggest contributors or something of the sort.

It is my intention to link to the section of the Script that have historical articles. I would also like to link up with Helios as well. Phase II would be to create awards for historical based research and articles. However, you must create a community first.

Thanks for the feedback!

[hellheaven1987]

There are two dynamics at play here: [1] the creation of a specific area (History Community) would give a a greater sense of importance. The creation of a specific area would also help bring together members of the forum who value history. This group would in turn promote a higher standard of discussion. The VV is currently thrown in the other areas of discussion which are themselves plagues with poor quality postings. By removing the VV, this would take it out of that environment. [2] It is hoped that a "group" would form to help promote better and more academic discussion. I am told, the VV use to be a place where good historical discussion took place. It is not coincidental this was when the site had a dedicated group.

The real issue is to conduct academic discussion is difficult for most people, since it limit the topics people can participate. Back before 2010 that might work, since we did have considerable members who were very knowledge about various topics, but that is not the case now. In the end, unfortunately, the events in the last three months of 2006 hurted VV considerably and this section never fully recover even today.

[PikeStance]

The real issue is to conduct academic discussion is difficult for most people, since it limit the topics people can participate. Back before 2010 that might work, since we did have considerable members who were very knowledge about various topics, but that is not the case now. In the end, unfortunately, the events in the last three months of 2006 hurted VV considerably and this section never fully recover even today.

I do not believe the current state of things would create by itself an environment that once existed. A site that puts emphasis on history would in time attract the quality that once existed. Moreover, there are already a fair number of positive contributors here. You want to encourage an increase in their activity which will show any potential participant the value of posting in the area. The VV locked away in obscurity would never reignite what was once here. A revitalized community that can rally in its own forum will generate more interest and more "passerby" If for no other reason, doing nothing will only result in nothing happening or changing. Changng something has at least the possibility of hope.

[G-Megas-Doux]

It would be interesting if there was a source library thread that was a sticky with one post and closed with only one mod able to edit the links to online translated editions of ancient books. I would like to see that in here. So I am for your idea. Oh and Pikestance +1 Rep.

[Petrucci]

I would like to see more systematization of this site. History section is good things to start off. Good division of eras. I think naval history is overkill.
Also it would be nice to have some sticky threads in it,with members's articles about most important thing that happened in that era in semi-academic user-friendly tone. Later if enough people are interested we can cover more specific events. With permission. of authors,we could use material from VV and research threads.

[hellheaven1987]

Well, if you said so; afterall trying would not hurt much anyway.

[PikeStance]

Hellheaven this is for you,..enjoy

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[G-Megas-Doux]

A poor post Pikestance fictitious and not historical -1 rep.

Hellheaven, what happened in the last months of 2006?

[PikeStance]

A poor post Pikestance fictitious and not historical -1 rep.

Hellheaven, what happened in the last months of 2006?

Oh rats!
You can go here to read about it TWC's Living History Forum

[G-Megas-Doux]

Ok I think I got the gist of what happened. Thanks.

[hellheaven1987]

Ok I think I got the gist of what happened. Thanks.

The real issue was many were permanently banned during those three months of terror ruling, resulted good amount of members left and never returned. Although the forum somehow recovered partially during the release of Empire, the quality of those new members was much poor than old members, resulted both VV and Mudpit engaged in daily nationalism and racism (particularly various Balkan, pro-Greek and pro-Slavic threads). Fortunately order was kindly restored around 2010 when site managers started to impose more control again and the environment of forum returned to normal again. But then, despite Mudpit recovered from the three years of semi-anarchism VV never recovered from it, since the members of new wave never are high quality as those before 2007 (besides a few, but I can use both hands to count how many are there today).

[G-Megas-Doux]

I have to admit that when I joined the VV was very active. I can say that during the time my own posts have not been of the standard that they should have been, so I wont judge anyone else. I did think that in 2009 and the early part of 2010 there was more variety. But it has varied over the time I have been here and I have been away and come back a few times. What you said about the bans and the reign of terror was the impression I got, that there was instability and forum civil war.

[hellheaven1987]

I did think that in 2009 and the early part of 2010 there was more variety.

Ya, because that was roughly the time when weekly nonsense such as "Lets Praise Red Army!!" or "Greeks were the good guys in Greco-Turkish War!!" finally died off. Jesus, some of our Greek members' early career in this forum was actually based on posting those biased nonsenses.

Now, let me give an "example" of how academic discussion should be.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Same here, I actually joined because I discovered the VV. Before that I was merely lurking for mods.

[G-Megas-Doux]

I joined because it was not just a site about these are the games we like and the mods we want, although that is the reason I found it. It has to be rare that a forum devoted to one thing in such a major way still has a lot of variety that gets much love. I keep coming back not for the total war but because of the range of interests to discuss with people who have similar interests but differing opinions to me.

[neoptolemos]

there are some really eloquent and knowledgable posters in VV and these posters didn't have any significant problem with the site's administration.
As many things in real life, many people became less involved in this part of the forum or in forum in general due to their real life schedules and priorities as well.