[Ideas] Next Mod: Balkans

[Darios]

This is the first time I've ever set foot in R2's modding forums and for that Mr. Sebidee, you should feel special))

In my opinion, the Getae as a faction is quite fine, if anything I'd find a way to give sicas to Dacian Heavy Skirmishers. I always imagined that a heavy Skirmisher would be a unit that can kill you from the distance and come in for the kill should they exhaust their missiles. R2 has a serious lack of this type of unit in the game. Dacian Heavy Archers should also have nice melee capabilities, being armed with an axe as a side arm. "heavy archers" of this type were passed down throughout history to the Dark Age Vlachs and even the medieval Wallachians and Moldovans who guarded the frontiers of the Carpathian Mountains.

Their cavalry could use a bit of an expansion, perhaps by giving them a Roxolani (possibly cataphract) lancer.

I would stay clear of anything resembling a "heavy falxman" because they did not exist. You could though, create a "Bastarnae" unit that wields a falx and is more powerful than a normal falxman. The Bastarnae were known for their ferocity.

Which brings me to my most important point for any Balkans Roster mod - Please fix the Bastarnae. Completely gut that Gallic roster and replace it with a generic Dacian roster. Maybe even add a few Scythian horse archers to the roster if possible.

I almost feel like there needs to be a mod that fixes the Scordosci (Thraco-Illyrian with a Celtic aristocracy), Tribalii (Thracian), Anartes (Dacian), and Bastarnae (Dacian/Germanic/Scythian), just to improve the atmosphere of the Balkans in R2.

Edit: Sebidee, do not let these people convince you to make something ahistorical and silly like Berserkers. Those belong to the Viking Era. As I have already stated the Getae roster is already quite nice in vanilla and only needs a few minor tweaks. I would also recommend AGAINST creating "Thracian Hoplites". Thracians come from a very ancient culture and hoplites simply were not their thing. If anything, you can honor the Greek cities of the Pontos Euxenios by creating units like "Hoplites of Odesseos" or "Hoplites of Kallatis" that could be a part of the Ordysian roster. If you wanna find ways to make them unique maybe you can add a mixture of Hellenic and Thracian art to their hoplons, maybe even use the famous "Thracian Rider."

[Sebidee]

I would stay clear of anything resembling a "heavy falxman" because they did not exist. You could though, create a "Bastarnae" unit that wields a falx and is more powerful than a normal falxman. The Bastarnae were known for their ferocity.

Edit: Sebidee, do not let these people convince you to make something ahistorical and silly like Berserkers. Those belong to the Viking Era. As I have already stated the Getae roster is already quite nice in vanilla and only needs a few minor tweaks. I would also recommend AGAINST creating "Thracian Hoplites". Thracians come from a very ancient culture and hoplites simply were not their thing. If anything, you can honor the Greek cities of the Pontos Euxenios by creating units like "Hoplites of Odesseos" or "Hoplites of Kallatis" that could be a part of the Ordysian roster. If you wanna find ways to make them unique maybe you can add a mixture of Hellenic and Thracian art to their hoplons, maybe even use the famous "Thracian Rider."

I had intended to add heavy falxmen but now I have to admit that I don't really know anything about them other than that they used a falx. Considering that the falx is pretty much the number one thing that comes to mind when someone thinks of the Getae I figure they need more than just one falx armed unit. So falxmen wearing armour have absolutely no historical basis?

I really like your idea about the Hoplites from the Greek cities around the black sea. I could make maybe 2 unique hoplite units, make them semi elite and limit them to 2 or 3 on the campaign. Brilliant. Rep for that, that will definitely make it in.

[Darios]

I'd glad you like the suggestions. The use of heavy armor for the Dacians should be taken with care because only the most elite nobles would use it. They were a largely a speed based ambush people who specialized in hiding, missile weapons (with poison arrows), and shock attacks. They weren't really a people who would put on heavy armor and hope to outlast you in hand to hand fighting. The falx was a weapon designed to charge in, kill you as quickly as possible, then retreat back into the forests and mountains before the enemy realized what was happening.

If you want to create a heavily armored falxmen then it would be an interesting "might have been"/"what if" unit that wouldn't be totally ahistorical, but falxmen were more or less brave men who were very little/no armor who believed that Zalmoxis made them immortal. I think that if you want an unique historical twist on a falx unit then it should be to create a Bastarnae falxmen with more attack capabilities.

[Sebidee]

Well all I really wanted was a tier system for the falxmen. At the moment there is just one low tier unit and I wanted to add a mid, upper and elite unit to the roster too. I had figured that increasing their armour level for each tier would have been the way to do it as that is generally what is done for other factions. I suppose a different approach could be taken, maybe I can make them more skillful or quicker, or have increased special abilities. It shouldn't be hard to tier falxmen without giving them ahistorical armour. Thanks for letting me know that, I certainly would have made that mistake.

I think the bastarnae could perhaps fill in the mid tier space. Have them generally the same as the getae Falxmen but stronger.

[crawe1]

I like Darios' idea of having regional 'specialist' units. So yes, you could have normal falxmen and Bastarnae falxman, who are recruitable by the Bastarnae, and perhaps, on a more limited basis, by the Getae and other Dacian factions (i.e. as mercenaries). I would quite like to see this idea expanded. So for instance, I think the Dii were famous for their rhomphaia units - so maybe, the Odrysians get access to Dii Warriors, who are a superior version of Thracian Warriors (similar equipment, but slightly better stats and increased cost as a result of their limited numbers). Also, weren't the Triballi renowned for their sword units? So again, Triballi Warriors could be a superior kind of sword unit. I'm no expert - this is stuff I just half-remember reading somewhere, but I think you get the idea. It would give this region of the map a very unique feel and would help to convey the sense of a confederation of tribes.

I know it's only Wikipedia, but maybe these links can help if you haven't seen them already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...race_and_Dacia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...bes_in_Illyria.

[Darios]

You could try this:

1st tier - falxmen (just like in the vanilla game...) they have good attack but pretty much no staying power
2nd tier - bastarnae - falxmen with slightly more staying power and improved attack + skills
3rd tier - tarabostes - "noble" infantry carrying a shield + a sica (Tarabostes were Dacian noblemen)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I like Darios' idea of having regional 'specialist' units. So yes, you could have normal falxmen and Bastarnae falxman, who are recruitable by the Bastarnae, and perhaps, on a more limited basis, by the Getae and other Dacian factions (i.e. as mercenaries). I would quite like to see this idea expanded. So for instance, I think the Dii were famous for their rhomphaia units - so maybe, the Odrysians get access to Dii Warriors, who are a superior version of Thracian Warriors (similar equipment, but slightly better stats and increased cost as a result of their limited numbers). Also, weren't the Triballi renowned for their sword units? So again, Triballi Warriors could be a superior kind of sword unit. I'm no expert - this is stuff I just half-remember reading somewhere, but I think you get the idea. It would give this region of the map a very unique feel and would help to convey the sense of a confederation of tribes.

I know it's only Wikipedia, but maybe these links can help if you haven't seen them already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...race_and_Dacia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...bes_in_Illyria.

This is some really good stuff. Thracia in R2 is a mess and I do think individual tribes should be recognized more in order to make the region feel more "Thracian." Dii Warriors, Tribalii Warriors, Hoplites of Odesseos, Hoplites of Kallatis, etc. would do wonders for the Ordysian Kingdom. I believe they should also be giving access to Agrarian Axemen. They fought for Macedon sure, but first and foremost - they were Thracians.

[Sebidee]

There weren't really large Thracian or Dacian kingdoms anyway were there? I think it was far more fractured and broken down to minor tribes. It's easy to understand why TW can't make it like this but I think we can simulate it with tribe specific units. Other than the Dii and Agrianians are there any other notable tribes that are NOT represented as a faction in the game?

[Falcor]

There weren't really large Thracian or Dacian kingdoms anyway were there? I think it was far more fractured and broken down to minor tribes. It's easy to understand why TW can't make it like this but I think we can simulate it with tribe specific units. Other than the Dii and Agrianians are there any other notable tribes that are NOT represented as a faction in the game?

They were confederations but many factions in the game are. They unified under Odrysia including the Triballi until Philip II father of Alexander broke them up and Triballi switched sides during the war. You could use the tribe names for cross faction units too. I'll look for more sub tribes. The most unified were probably Odrysia and maybe Getae, Odrysia was not far from hellenized. All the cities in this period in Thrace were Greek settlements, their first city came later.

[Falcor]

I agree with Darios, though the term berserker is wrong historically there were naked warriors like in R1 but they called them fanatics or frenzied or something, however the Galatians are the only faction I've found record of this and they did poorly. Also that is a lot of good info Abot_ found, I read it all separately elsewhere. The Odrysians used cavalry and missile infantry working together and peltasts hand to hand had half-circle one hand sickles. I'm all for missle units that can close and stand with melee fighters, as Darios said it is a regional tendency. I want to make falx harder to hit and light armor is common, usually outdated helmet and cuirass for mobility. A more curved falx would make sense for better hooking and overhead piercing. Also some had shorter very curved blades. A median falx that gets hit less even if you don't add variety to the curves would be nice. They were mobile and didn't always open themselves up with a big swing. I'll see if I can find out from someone. Second best solution is something between the two in armor.
There will be swords too and I just want the falx or rhomphaia to stay in the roster midgame. Also I'd look into the clubs because I read they were curved to break spears, I think in the game update history thing. Also single and double headed axes. Odrysians used the labrys symbolically but in battle as well.
One idea is to make confederated units if you can do that, so you don't lose a helpful unit. Possibly a mercenary recruit unit or two from each new roster for related factions based on how confederation would really work. I hated seeing units go away. That's why they confederated before, each has strengths the others lack so a way to still have those units would be awesome.
I don't know if you want to work with some of squire ewoks OK pack but I've asked if you can and it doesn't work as is, it was made before Pirates and raiders. Another thing, Noif, who does faction emblems said it crashed when he tried to do an Odrysian K. icon. I have the DLC so I'll ask for the file and see if it works. There are pictures of the Roman armor from the Dacian war versus falx, the segmentata was getting cut off and they went two armor generations back to a solid piece cuirass and added strips of metal to their helmet tops and armor on their arms. It was popping through the helmets, and it is said the can cut Roman shields in half. I've seen a reenactor make it half way through. I'll find that rhomphaia footage it also has a sica test cutting. It looks like maybe in Bulgaria. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CTOCg8__kc

[crawe1]

Here's some quick research I did on the Thracian tribes:

The Bessi. Apparently, according to Strabo, they're one of the fiercest of the Thracian tribes. He called them "brigands among brigands" and wrote that they were "addicted to plunder". Could make for a good light melee or superior skirmisher unit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi.

The Dii. Ferocious swordsmen, though personally I'd probably interpret 'sword' here as meaning rhomphaia or sica, so as to give them that unique Thracian feel. Either way, some sort of elite shock troop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dii.

The Maedi. Renowned war-like raiders, who made frequent incursions into Macedonia and northern Greece. Spartacus was supposedly meant to belong to this tribe before he became a gladiator. Again, I'd imagine them as some sort of superior melee unit or a heavy skirmisher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maedi.

The Satrae. It's not clear if this was a specific tribe or the name for the aristocratic warrior caste belonging to the Dii and Bessi tribes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satri.

The Thyni. They appear to have been some sort of club-wielding night-fighters. Maybe a good scare unit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyni.

The Triballi. I'm guessing they could have more of a Celtic flavour compared to some of the other Thracian units. Maybe give them a hellenic style tunic and helmet, but let them wield a celtic longsword and celtic shield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi.

[Sebidee]

I think emblems and faction colours can wait until later. Also there is a limit to what I can do with new models, I will either have to get them from other models or try to jury rig something with textures. Basically they take a lot of time, far to much than I want to spend on a single expansion. Adding new weapons and everything will have to be fairly limited.

[Falcor]

I think emblems and faction colours can wait until later. Also there is a limit to what I can do with new models, I will either have to get them from other models or try to jury rig something with textures. Basically they take a lot of time, far to much than I want to spend on a single expansion. Adding new weapons and everything will have to be fairly limited.

Aren't there club units in some faction? I haven't seen anyone do a real nearly straight Rhomphaia but if you see the video the blade and handle are probably both longer than in game falx, so it would be tough to call a falx one. I understand I'm just presenting the ideal units so you can make something equivalent in place of time intense stuff..

[Falcor]

[Falcor]

Looks like they went to war with bagpipes called Gaida, this is just general Thrace. Fox skin cap, high boots.

[Sebidee]

Yes, there are club units for other factions. I thought you ere talking about new kinds of clubs

[Falcor]

Yes, there are club units for other factions. I thought you ere talking about new kinds of clubs

I was just mentioning it. You could give a bonus versus spears or something.

[Falcor]

SquireEwokonTitan [author] Jul 13 @ 12:58pm
You can use some of my units/textures if you like-- as long as I get a credit I'm happy.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...scn=1405274293
From steam client application.
So you have the go ahead to use any stuff you like.

[Sebidee]

Are you able to translate that picture on the right? I'm not sure if you are Greek or not.

[Falcor]

I thought it might be Russian, but Greek has some letters in common. I think they make about the same sounds. On closer inspection the patterns do look more Greek if you look at the bottom right word though, the letter that looks like an X with a line 'I' down the middle is Russian or at least Cyrillic not Greek. The letters that are the same are pronounced the same though, except- H N,is N E Russian and E N Greek and D looks like a d. It might be Bulgarian because it isn't like normal Russian. My guess is Thessaly or Thessalonian, Thessaluuskuu the left is Thrakian the other I can't find, it is like Krumskuu. Just an educated guess, these aren't my stronger languages but I'm familiar with the sounds.

[Abot_]

It is definitely Russian. I don't read Russian but I matched the words up to cyrillic characters and put them in Google Translate, and got:

Next to sling: Праща --> Sling

Above sword: Меч - ксифос --> Sword - Ksifos (xiphos)

Under sword: Панцирь - торакс --> Carapace - the Thorax (thorax armor)

Under right horseman: Фессалиец Всадник --> Thessalian Horseman

Under archer: Критский лучник --> Cretan Archer

Under left horseman: Фракийский бсайник --> Thracian bsaynik (some sort of cavalry? Google suggests a word that translates to Thracian baynik, but I still don't know what that is)

Above arrow: Лук со стрелой --> Bow and arrow